Home > Theology and Eschatology > The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Rapture of the Church

The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the Rapture of the Church


By ICA

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-52, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

And there it is.  Two of the — if not the – most popular “rapture” passages in the entire Bible.  Yet when many Christians read about the timing of the “rapture” at the “last trump” they are either unaware, or because of an already preconceived assumption on this very subject, refuse to even consider if the “last trumpet” of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is a direct reference to the 7th and last trumpet that John describes in the 10th chapter of Revelation. But why? Admittedly, even I was not aware of the significance of Revelation 10 for many years, but am now more than convinced that we can corroborate through the context of text that this is indeed the last trumpet that the Apostle Paul wrote about to the church in Corinth.

For a moment, if you will, toss aside any preconceptions you may have on the timing of the rapture and approach the text as if it were for the first time.  Approach it with the heart of a Berean so that together we may search the Scriptures. In this way, let us now begin to pay particularly close attention to the details surrounding the mighty angel as he begins to sound the 7th and last trumpet in Revelation 10:

Revelation 10:1,3a,7, “And I saw another mighty angel COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire … And cried with a LOUD VOICE, as [when] a lion roareth … in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH angel, when he shall begin to SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

Notice the words I have emphasized above and tell me:  Does it not stand to reason that John is describing a direct parallel with what the Apostle Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, two of the most popular passages in the entire Bible?

1 Thess 4:16-17, “For the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” *and* 1 Cor 15:51-52 reads, “Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

In Revelation 10 we have:

  1. A “mighty angel” coming down from heaven
  2. Crying out with a loud voice
  3. The seventh and last trumpet begins to sound
  4. And the “mystery” of God is finished once the last trumpet begins to sound

In 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 we have:

  1. The Lord coming down from heaven with the voice of the Archangel
  2. With a shout
  3. Comes with the ‘last trump’ of God
  4. The Mystery: The dead are raised and we are changed in the twinkling of an eye

I do not believe that this is just some mere, yet astounding, coincidence.  In fact, if we examine the text even more closely we’ll begin to discover something very significant regarding the identity of the “mighty angel” of Revelation 10 that many of us will easily miss the first time we read the text.

In Revelation 10:1 notice how this “mighty angel” comes down from heaven “clothed with a cloud”.  Why is this important?  In the whole of Scripture the only One in the eschaton of time described in this manner is Jesus Christ during the Second Coming.   He is said to be “coming on the clouds” or “coming in a cloud” (Matt. 24:30, 26:64, Mark 13:26, 14:62, Luke 12:27, Rev. 1:7, Dan 7:13). Even when Jesus ascended to Heaven “he was taken up; and a cloud received him” (Acts 1:9).  Additionally, in 10:1 we also read that “his face was like the sun”, which should remind us immediately of Revelation 1:16-17 where the One who calls Himself “the first and the last” is described by John as having a face “like the sun shining in all its brilliance”.  Who could this be?

In Revelation 10:2 we find another significant clue, and this is one that I myself missed the first time I looked at Revelation 10 more closely.  In verse 2 John tells us that this mighty angelwas holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand.”  This is extremely interesting for two reasons.  First, the only other mention of a scroll being opened in Revelation before this is in chapter 5 where a scroll with 7 seals could not be opened by anyone — presumably anyone created given the context — because “no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it” (5:3).  Considering the Semitic styling of Revelation, John was Jewish and would have understood what this meant and it upset him a great deal, causing him to weep.  But then one of the elders says to John, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” (5:5).  There is no question here regarding the identity of the One who is worthy to open the book, the One described in the very next verse appearing as “a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain” (5:6).  Obviously, this is Messiah, Jesus.   Second, we gain an extremely important insight into this picture when we consider what it means from a Hebraic perspective and why it would have caused John to weep:

Usually scrolls were made of sheep skin from the underbelly or later on papyrus. But this scroll is not just any scroll. It has writing on BOTH sides. The ONLY other scroll ever mentioned in the scriptures to have writing on both sides (scrolls were only written on one side, always) was the stone tablets that Moses brought downfrom Mt Sinai that Yahweh had written by His Own Hand! Exodus 32:15. Therefore it is a fact that this scroll Yahweh is holding in his right Hand IS the Torah! The marriage contract, the Ketubah! Now, according to the ancient Hebrew marriage ritual, who was the only person that had authority to open and read the ketubah?  Yes, the Groom. [1]

If this scroll is in fact the Ketubah, why is this significant?  Find out the meaning of the 144,000 and the great multitude here.  Jesus even alluded to the marriage union in John 14:1-3 when stating that He would receive us unto Himself.  See here.

Next, in Revelation 10:3 we read that “he gave a loud shout like the ROAR OF A LION.”  This is yet again another significant clue in my opinion, for we know that Christ is the One who roars at His coming. Jeremiah 25:30 says that, “‘The LORD will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.” In Hosea 11:10 we read, “They shall walk after the LORD: he shall ROAR LIKE A LION: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.” Joel 3:16 says, “The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Amos 1:2 says that “The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.” 1 Thess 4:16 says that “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven WITH A SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”.

Now, although this next clue is found in 10:1 I wanted to save it for last.  It is the “rainbow upon his head”.  The only other reference to a rainbow in Revelation is in 4:3 when John describes the throne of God.  Significantly, aside from the very last book of the Bible, the only other time a rainbow appears in Scripture is in the first book of the Bible in Genesis 9:13-14. In the Genesis account, the rainbow is seen in the aftermath of the global flood sent forth by God in order to remove sinful and evil-minded man from the earth. [2]. As the rainbow symbolizes God’s promise to never again destroy the earth through a flood, we are reminded by Peter that the next time judgment comes it will not come by a flood, but by fire. In 2 Peter 3:3-7, we read:

“First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

“Where is this coming he promised?”   There is their answer.

Judging from what we have learned from above we can ascertain both exegetically and hermeneutically that the “mighty messenger” that John sees coming down from Heaven (often translated as “angel”) in Rev 10:1 is in fact a direct reference to Jesus Christ.  But make no mistake about it, this is not just some regular, ordinary, created ‘angel’.  It is very important to first be aware that the word “angel” simply means “messenger” and although this term normally refers to a created being, this is NOT always the case.  The Angel of the LORD, for example, (i.e. the Messenger of YHWH in the Old Testament) often speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and claims the prerogatives of God [3] because He is God.  When the Lord appeared to others in “human” form in the Old Testament this was called a Theophany (though I personally prefer the term Christophany, even if prior to the incarnation). Thus, just as we see the Christophanic/Theophanic angel in Old Testament Scriptures, and the terminology used throughout Revelation by John is redolent of the prophetic texts of the Old Testament, the “mighty messenger” of Revelation 10 is an appearance of the Christophanic/Theophanic angel as well.

When we contextualize and compare Scripture with Scripture we can often re-examine the text and discover from the text additional insights or details we hadn’t considered before, and Revelation 10 is a prime example.  It’s like watching one of your favorite films a second or third time and seeing something you hadn’t the first time around.  Only better.  As 2 Timothy 3:16 declares, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” and since all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, the Bible is therefore ultimately written by God alone, although through the pens of men. As such, when the Spirit of God inspired Paul to write about the “last trump” (1 Cor 15:52) and the “trump of God” (1 Thess 4:16), the Holy Spirit of God who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10) also knew full well that John would later be given the Revelation of Jesus Christ which would identify precisely what it was that Paul referred to in his epistles to the churches in Thessalonica and Corinth.  And as we can see from above, John’s description of the seventh and last trumpet of Revelation reveals Christ descending from Heaven.  It reveals the gathering of His elect.  It reveals the rapture of the Church.

About these ads
  1. 03/24/2011 at 11:51 PM

    This is the answer I have been looking for for a long time – there has always been a question regards the rapture for me and you have provided the answer with the last Trump

    God Bless

  2. ICA
    03/25/2011 at 10:59 PM

    Thank you for your comment Willard, I am glad it provided the answer for you. God bless …

  3. Cocopea
    03/26/2011 at 4:09 PM

    Hi there,

    Well, I am a firm Pre-Trib Rapture believer and nothing can destroy that. But this was a very good study you gave on scripture. The great thing is that no matter ones stance on the Rapture timing, all true believers will go! And the other great thing is that belief in the Rapture is not a requirement for Salvation. So there are no losers in this area. I just can’t wait for the Rapture and to have all the various notions or disbelief about it put to rest. Now that will be a great day!

    Thank you for sharing your views!

    God Bless!

    • 11/05/2012 at 1:40 PM

      “nothing can destroy that”…wow, no comment required

    • Rinon
      06/01/2013 at 9:49 AM

      The Bible makes far too many references to “The Last Day” (not days as some people teach) that it can’t be confused. John 6:39 & 40, John 6:44, John 6:54 (Jesus said it 4 times in 1 chapter), John 11:24, John 12:48. Also notice any time the tribulation period is talked about they always say “last days”. But all instances mentioning the rapture say “The Last Day”. It’s undeniable. We have to live through the tribulation and refuse the mark of the beast and possibly be beheaded. End of story.

      • Bart
        10/26/2013 at 11:22 AM

        Agreed, the whole history of the Bible has no supernatural whisking away, Noah had to build the ark, the Israelites had to walk. Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

        there is protection for the Philelphian Christians, hower it is clear that another group remains and are persecuted.

        The Rapture is an invention from the 1800,s and has ZERO truth Biblically.

  4. ICA
    03/26/2011 at 5:33 PM

    Hi Cocopea. I have a feeling that many various notions or disbeliefs regarding certain ‘rapture’ views will be dispelled by the time the gathering takes place.

  5. ICA
    04/01/2011 at 9:20 PM

    I’ve updated the article to include one more clue I had missed – the open scroll.

  6. ICA
    10/07/2011 at 1:14 PM

    I had an online discussion recently with the author of several books, and when I shared the details laid out by John in Revelation 10 and how it harmonizes with our gathering together to Christ, his response was, naturally, similar to many other pre-trib believers. I’ll post his reply, along with my response for any other pre-trib brothers and sisters who may have come across the article above:

    Fred DeRuvo: “ICA – I will give you one big clue about the Rapture. Take the time to study the Jewish Festivals. With respect to the ‘last trump,’ you should understand that Israel used the trump on numerous occasions. There was usually a SERIES of trumps given during those occasions (whether it was a call to a festival, a king’s coronation, or a call to arms). At the end of a series of trumps in succession, there was normally a long, loud, trump as the finale. This long, loud trump is known to be the ‘last trump.’ Because the trump (shofar) was sounded on a variety of occasions, my belief is that Paul’s reference to the ‘last trump’ is in keeping with the way the shofar was used, ending with the long, loud trumpet blast for whatever the occasion happened to be that it was being used.

    I think if more of us Gentiles approached Scripture from a Jewish standpoint, there would be far greater understanding of His Word. As it is, like many, you have simply assumed that Paul’s reference to the “last trump” points to the last trumpet judgment in Revelation, when there is not necessarily any correlation at all.

    There is a great likelihood that when the Rapture occurs, there will be a series of trumps, ending with the loud, long trump. I believe that’s what Paul was referring to and it makes perfect sense when compared with how the trump (again, shofar) was used in Israelite history.”

    This is a very common understanding among pre-trib proponents lately. Although the Feast of Trumpets is extremely important (the Fall Feasts will be fulfilled with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ), what the pre-trib position fails to consider, however, is one additional level of understanding which looks at the Feast of Trumpets similarly to how we understand types and shadows in the Old Testament. Consider, for instance, how animal sacrifices performed by men in the Old Testament were a shadow that pointed towards the substance to come, which was fulfilled in the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ (John 1:29). Or physical circumcision, an outward expression which points to an inward reality of the circumcised heart by the work of the Holy Spirit (Col 2:11). Or even the old Temple of stone built by men, which was a type of the Spiritual Temple now comprised of believers and built by Christ (Matt 16:18, 1 Pet 2:5, Eph 2:19-22). In those examples, what was once carried out by the work of man was now completed by the work of God. In the same manner, I believe that it is essential to view the ‘last trumpet’ referred to by Paul (1 Cor 15:52) not as the ending to the Feast of Trumpets themselves, which are blown by mere men, but rather as the last ‘trump of God’ as Paul is clear to reveal to us (1 Thess 4:16). As such, the ‘trump of God’ is resolved for us in Revelation 8:2, where John sees angels standing before God, and God giving them seven trumpets, to which the ‘last trump’ is the seventh and final trumpet in this series (Rev 10:7). Yet again, what was once carried out by the work of men, is now completed by the work of God.

    I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. DeRuvo’s statement that if we approach Scripture from a Jewish standpoint, we would gain a much better understanding of His Word. The problem, however, lies in the fact that a pre-trib rapture is a Gentile invention, not a Jewish teaching (the Apostle Paul was Jewish), and is supported nowhere in the Hebrew (nor in the Greek) texts.

    Proverbs 10:30, “The righteous will never be uprooted, but the wicked will not remain in the land.”

  7. 10/07/2011 at 3:33 PM

    So then is DeRuvo a “non-Imminency” Pre-Tribulationalist? To peg the Feast of Trumpets as the day of the rapture seems to preclude ‘imminency’.

    Actually, this isn’t the first I’ve heard of this. Many messianic congregations/pastors subscribe to the view that Jesus’ 2nd Coming is aligned with the Fall Feasts and the (Pre-Trib) Rapture will occur on the FOT. The problem with this is that it obviates one of the main, if not THE most important legs of Pre-Tribism–that “of that day and hour no man knows.”

    To your point, ICA, that there are OT shadows and NT/prophetic fulfilments–there’s no denying that. But consider for a moment:

    Passover – the lamb of God – Jesus is the lamb of God – Jesus died on Passover

    Unleavened Bread – no leaven or “sin” – Jesus had no sin – Jesus was buried on UB

    First Fruits – the first crops to be harvested – Jesus is the first resurrected man – Jesus was resurrected on FF

    Shavuot/Pentecost – the law was given – the Spirit was given – same day

    So while these are obviously shadows and fulfillments, they are more–when they relate to Jesus’ work and His presence on earth, they are being fulfilled on the very day of the particular Feast. I don’t think its unreasonable then to project that the only day (to my knowledge) in the entire Bible associated with the blowing of trumpets, the FOT, will be THE day Jesus returns.

    Indeed, the Hebrew “Yom Teruah” literally means “Day of Blowing (the shofar)”. In fact it could even be translated “Day of Shouting” since “teruah” is usually translated shouting! This makes 1 Thes 4:16 even more relevant: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.”

    I think there are numerous problems for pre-tribulationalists like DeRuvo, besides the inconsistency of their overall view–that Jesus could come back anytime AND it will be on the FOT. You have well pointed these out elsewhere.

    But these “Fall Feast Pre-Tribbers” have another problem–Paul, a couple of verses later in 1 Thes 5:1, identifies the “trumpet-shout-return” of Yeshua as “the Day of the Lord.” I think they need Yom Kippur to be the Day of the Lord, and the 7 days between the FOT and YK to be 7 years. But at Jesus’ first coming, all Spring Feasts were fulfilled in the same year. The Fall Feasts won’t be?

    Yom Kippur is the day of Israel’s national reconciliation with Jesus. The ekklesia will be protected for seven DAYS between the FOT (2 day feast) and YK on Tishrei 10. The world will have those “10 days of awe” to repent. Jesus will feet will touch down on Mt. Olives Tishrei 1, not Tishrei 10.

    Kurt

    http://prophesite.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/feast-of-the-lord-5-yom-teruah-rosh-hashanah-trumpets/

  8. ICA
    10/07/2011 at 4:02 PM

    Kurt, “So then is DeRuvo a “non-Imminency” Pre-Tribulationalist? To peg the Feast of Trumpets as the day of the rapture seems to preclude ‘imminency’.”

    That’s a good point.

    Kurt, “So while these are obviously shadows and fulfillments, they are more–when they relate to Jesus’ work and His presence on earth, they are being fulfilled on the very day of the particular Feast. I don’t think its unreasonable then to project that the only day (to my knowledge) in the entire Bible associated with the blowing of trumpets, the FOT, will be THE day Jesus returns.”

    Certainly, and there’s no doubt about that. The problem that I see however is that pre-tribulationists who ascribe to this view will take the Feast of Trumpets and infer that Paul was simply referring to the Feast of Trumpets and nothing more in his epistles to the churches in Thessalonica and Corinth, while ignoring the significance of the ‘trumps of God’ in Revelation 8:2 and 10:7 because it doesn’t adhere to a pre-trib paradigm. I would contend, based upon the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence in Scripture, that Revelation 8:2 and 10:7 is instead precisely what the Apostle Paul was referring to (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and in advance of the Book of Revelation itself), and that the last trump of God will somehow coincide with the Feast of Trumpets blown by men.

    At the end of the day, although they are correct regarding the Feast of Trumpets, they are incorrect in discounting and turning a blind eye to its fulfillment with the seventh and last trump of God, and the return of Christ Jesus, in Revelation 10:7. Because of the pre-trib assumption, however, they are forced to do so.

  9. 10/07/2011 at 4:30 PM

    ICA :
    …I would contend, based upon the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence in Scripture, that Revelation 8:2 and 10:7 is instead precisely what the Apostle Paul was referring to (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and in advance of the Book of Revelation itself), and that the last trump of God will somehow coincide with the Feast of Trumpets blown by men…

    Agree, with the exception that I don’t think a trumpet literally needs to be being “blown by men” when Jesus arrives on Yom Teruah, although that could certainly be the case since Jesus was killed at 3 pm, the same time the High Priest was cutting the throat of the Lamb. In my imagination, and not contradicted by scripture, they both uttered “It is finished” in unison. The trumpet is God’s, but being the artist that the Eternal Triune Being is, I wouldn’t be surprised if the “last trumpet” was being blown on or near the temple mount.

    ICA :
    At the end of the day, although they are correct regarding the Feast of Trumpets, they are incorrect in discounting and turning a blind eye to its fulfillment with the seventh and last trump of God, and the return of Christ Jesus, in Revelation 10:7. Because of the pre-trib assumption, however, they are forced to do so.

    Also agree.

  10. Anonymous
    10/07/2011 at 7:50 PM

    I was just thinking about all of this today when I received my daily news update from Arutz-7 News from Israel (an orthodox Jewish news organization). There was an article on Yom Kippur, discussing how it is a day of fasting and prayer. Here is the portion that I found interesting:

    “The end of the fast is signalled by a dramatic, lone shofar-blast and the immediate singing of “Next year in rebuilt Jerusalem”. In many Israeli synagogues, this is a signal for joyous dancing as the fast’s end signals a lightening of spirits.”

    So, is it possible that the “last trumpet” is this one, long shofar blast on Yom Kippur? Makes more sense to me, since I always equated the FOT not with the rapture, but as a time of preparing oneself for the Day of the Lord (Yom Kippur). The 10 days of awe between FOT and Yom Kippur are possibly aluded to in Rev. 6 in which the trumpet judgments are meant to bring people to repentance.

    It is also interesting to note that the only other place in scripture where 7 trumpets are mentioned is in Joshua 6 with the story of the fall of Jericho. Some interesting scriptural parallels there.

    AHF

  11. 10/08/2011 at 12:32 PM

    Certainly “we see through a glass dimly”—we can’t be dogmatic on something like whether the Day of the Lord is Yom Teruah or Yom Kippur, although I am about 99% certain it is one of the two. Pre-trib Christians who don’t hold to “imminency”, including many Messianic congregations, believe the rapture occurs on YT and that the seven days between the end of YT and YK represent a 7 year trib, with the DotL occuring on YK. See these links for examples of this:

    http://www.feastsofthelord.com/ss/live/index.php?action=getpage&sid=204&pid=2191

    http://www.bibleprophesy.org/feasts7.htm

    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Fall_Holidays/Yom_Kippur/yom_kippur.html

    In these articles there is reference to the ‘first trumpet’ (Shavuot), the ‘last trumpet’ (YT) and the ‘great trumpet’ (YK), with the later signifying the DotL. That may be, but nowhere have I found in scripture a clear association between ‘the last trumpet’ of 1 Cor 15:52 and YK; the only time trumpets are blown on a Feast day is on YT (Lev 23:24). From many other scriptures we know that the return of Christ is post-Trib, and so I logically draw the conclusion that Jesus returns to rapture/resurrect His bride AND slay the beast on YT, not YK.

    Right now I see the Trumpets leading up to the Last Trumpet on YT occurring BEFORE YT; the Hebrew month of Elul (preceding Tishrei) was actually preparation for YT, and both this month and the ‘10 Days of Awe’ (40 days total) were known as “Teshuvah”, meaning “Repentance”. Trumpets were blown every day during Elul, except for “the Hidden Day”, the day before YT. So there is correspondence between the Trumpet judgments and the month before YT, if it’s needed.

    To be PERFECTLY honest, I still see both the Seal and Trumpet judgments as already fulfilled in Church history, with the 5th and 6th Trumpets signifying the rise and advance of Islam. In my *current* view we are at the cusp of the 7th Trumpet. The jury is out for me on the Bowl judgments—they could either ‘have been occurring’ concurrently with the Trumpets, or they could be yet to come between YT and YK, or even preceding YT.

    The last thing I want to say is this—if YT is the DotL/Rapture, we are still left with a period of time, 7-9 days, until YK. YK was the yearly renewal of national reconciliation and covenant between YHWH and Israel; the day “all Israel” was/is saved. It seems to me to be the day of the Sheep and the Goats (“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ ” Mt 25:40). A potential conflict is resolved between the ‘Wheat and Tares’ parable (more accurately, ‘prophecy’) and this one by placing immediate judgment and death upon the wicked on YT per the Wheat and Tares, and those that enter the millennium per Sheep and Goats later, on YK. The 7-9 day period provides those ‘on probation’ with their last chance to repent. It could provide the timing for the Bowls judgment. And it could provide the time for ‘the wedding feast’ for the Bride, somewhere—Heaven or the New Jerusalem are my leading candidates.

    Sorry for the long reply. I would love to hear anyone’s comments or critique.

  12. Anonymous
    10/13/2011 at 6:51 PM

    I have a question about this idea that the trumpets in Revelation are what Paul was speaking about. You make what seems to be a good scripture analysis but I think there is a serious problem with that position because you believe that the rapture is posttrib, but if it happens at the 7th trumpet in Revelation then this can’t be posttrib because the vials still have to be poured out after the trumpets. That would put the rapture more like midtrib, right? I am very curious to know how you would answer this problem.

  13. ICA
    10/13/2011 at 7:17 PM

    The question above was posed recently on Fred DeRuvo’s blog, and is in fact a very good question that one may ask when presented with evidence that the 7th and last trumpet of Revelation 10 is a description of Christ’s post-tribulational gathering of His elect. This is due to the fact that the pre-trib teaching contends that the seals, trumpets and vials are sequential, one after the other. But there are many reasons why a sequential understanding has numerous problems. If one wishes to assert that the seals, trumpets and vials are consecutive, we’re forced to conclude, for instance, that there are two First Resurrections. We’re forced to conclude that the sun and moon and stars darken twice. That the islands and mountains are removed twice. Or that the sky recedes as a scroll and is taken away twice, among many other things. But is this reasonable? How can all mountains and islands be removed again after they’ve already been removed? How can the First Resurrection happen two times?

    Due to the Semitic style of apocalyptic literature employed by John, in addition to many of the specific details that John gives us all throughout Revelation, the seals, trumpets and vials cannot be sequential one after the other. Rather, they are lateral events or judgments whereby the seventh of each all end right around the same time in the eschaton — immediately after the tribulation. This is a view that is supported by many teachers and theologians. Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, for example, which is considered by many to be the standard conservative-evangelical work, write in their commentary that “the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials, are not consecutive, but parallel, and ending in the same consummation. They present the unfolding of God’s plans for bringing about the grand end under three different aspects, mutually complementing each other.” (Link)

    Author William Arnold III writes that “Although I do not see a strict chronology, I do see a literary flow of the book of Revelation (characters are usually introduced into the story before they are discussed, such as the 144,000 in chapter 7 and the great harlot in chapter 17). This order may seem strange to us, but it is not foreign to other passages in the Bible and fits very well with the Semitic style of the book. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus describes the first 3 ½ years (beginning of sorrows) followed by the second 3 ½ years (Tribulation) and finishes with the coming of the end (Matthew 24:4-14). Then he returns to discuss the midpoint in verse 15 and the second 3 ½ year period again in verse 21. This is similar to the story of creation in Genesis 1 and 2. Moses tells the whole story and then returns to expound on the creation of man in more detail. This is how I understand the seals, trumpets, and vials. They are increasingly more telescopic of events leading up to the end.” (Link)

    Rhett Totten, MDiv, writes, “Some may find it confusing that after this seventh trumpet, John further describes tribulational events in Revelation, but there is a very good explanation. In his book, The Church and the Tribulation, (Zondervan, (c)1973), Robert Gundry brings out that in all three series, the Seals (Rev.6), Trumpets (Rev.8-11), and Bowls of Wrath (Rev.16), the seventh item in each series occurs at the Second Coming of Christ. Gundry points out that this arrangement is favored by the ‘Semitic style of Revelation …according to which the seals, trumpets, and bowls will find somewhat concurrent fulfillment.’ Also, the fact that later descriptions ‘add more detail is a well-recognized feature of narratival style in Semitic literature’ (Gundry, p.75)”. (Link)

    Although I may not agree with everything that these authors teach, I do believe that they are 100% correct in this regard. This understanding also answers why the “orge” wrath of God that we are not appointed unto (1 Thess 5:9) is always found in a post-trib context only. (See here). In fact, if you compare the trumpets and vials themselves together side by side, you’ll begin to see a pattern that presents the trumpets and vials as two sides of the same coin whereby the trumpets are the cause, and the vials are the effect. They describe the same events, but just from a different perspective. It’s a fascinating study, imho.

  14. 10/16/2011 at 11:07 PM

    I am more in agreement than not with ICA on his ‘Semetic Style of Revelation’ view, however, I think it is important to ask, if everything (seals/trumpets/bowls) ends before the resurrection/rapture, and if the R/R occurs on Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets), then what is happening on earth between YT and Yom Kippur? Does the vials being poured out subsequent the R/R necessarily mean that “the Tribulation” is not over?

    IF it is ‘the Tribulation of the Saints’ (Rev 7:14), and the saints have been resurrected/raptured, then when the Saints are gone, isn’t it just the unsaved world left and by definition the end of the Tribulation, since the Tribulation is something the Saints endure? That the bowls are being poured out and that additional time is given for the world to repent prior to the final judgment on YK doesn’t mean, necessarily, that the Trib has not yet ended.

    Like I said, I can easily see it the way ICA does – as lateral events (I like that term!) – but, what are the Feasts telling us? I am definitely open to and desirous of hearing other post-trib, no 7-year period-inserted, interpretation of YT and YK, and the 10-day period.

  15. Anonymous
    10/18/2011 at 8:54 PM

    It occurred to me many years ago while studying Rev. that it seemed like the seals encompassed the entire time span between the birth of the church and the second coming, obviously with events growing more intense and closer together like birth pangs (a la Matt. 24:4-14). The trumpets then zeroed in on the time of the trib and the bowls hit the bullseye on the Day of the Lord. More like concentric circles all counting down to the same center, if you will. In this case, we “go up” as the bowls pour down, not after. In this scenario, the 10 days of Awe may symbolize the trib as well. I always wondered if Rev. 2:10 might indicate this very thing. Just a few random thoughts.

    On an unrelated note: You guys might be interested in a new series on Bible Chronology that Tim Warner has put up on his website here: http://oasischristianchurch.org/

    AHF

  16. 01/03/2012 at 2:18 PM

    Good study. I was already persuaded of the post-trib rapture (actually always believed this, never having grown up being taught pre-trib rapture, and so I just read Scripture at face value and post-trib rapture is pretty clear) and learned from a Mike Bickle teaching that the last trumpet of 1Thessalonians 4 is the 7th trumpet of Revelation 10/11, but I hadn’t ever really made the connection that the “angel” in Revelation 10 is probably Jesus. It makes sense! Thanks.

  17. John Jacob Jingleheimersmith
    03/27/2012 at 3:32 AM

    Hey ICA,

    I am not done yet reading this one but I have to stop mid-read and give you props for this blog. I just found it 3 days ago. WOW!

    As you mentioned Rev 10 and it’s correlation to other parts of Revelation, this is something I have noticed for a while too. Revelation is not a straight timeline; just sayin’ because there are people who believe it is an a to b kind of thing.There are parts that overlap, some are synchronous and there are some that are indeed timlines but there are also timelines within timelines too!

    QQ. Just for the sake of a question. When Jesus appears with the holy angels, the clouds etc., there is the shout of an archangel. Do you think this may be Gabriel or an unnamed archangel since in Daniel 12, Michael would be rising up for Israel previous to the last trumpet event?

    GBU, JJ-JHS

  18. ICA
    03/28/2012 at 4:18 PM

    JJ-JHS, “When Jesus appears with the holy angels, the clouds etc., there is the shout of an archangel. Do you think this may be Gabriel or an unnamed archangel since in Daniel 12, Michael would be rising up for Israel previous to the last trumpet event?”

    Hi brother, there is only one Archangel mentioned in the whole of Scripture so I believe the identity here is easy to ascertain. It is not an unnamed archangel, but rather it is the Archangel of God – Michael.

    As a side note, here is a study that is now somewhat controversial since the birth of the the Jehovah’s Witnesses cult, but something that we should not be afraid to at least study. Many Church leaders in history believed that Archangel was a Christophany and is therefore eternal (again, the Christian view in this regard must not be confused with a similar yet corrupted and heretical view promoted by Jehovah’s Witnesses who, in addition, teach that Jesus is not eternal and is a created being).

    In presenting this study let me begin by saying that there are arguments against the thought that the Archangel is the Theophanic “Angel of the Lord”. For example, in Daniel 10:13 Daniel calls Michael “one of the chief princes”, so if Michael is simply “one of” he could not be the Christophanic/Theophanic angel if this is indeed how the verse is intended to be understood, as rendered in many Bible translations such as the NIV and KJV. The counter-argument, however, reminds us that the Hebrew word for “one” is “echad” in Dan 10:13 and although it is often translated as “one” it can also be translated as “first” (it is translated as “first” 36 times in the Old Testament such as Gen 1:5 for “first day.”) Young’s Literal Translation calls Michael the “first of the chief heads”. Regarding Daniel 10:13, Matthew Henry writes in his commentary that:

    “Here is Michael our prince, the great protector of the church, and the patron of its just but injured cause: The first of the chief princes, v. 13. Some understand it of a created angel, but an archangel of the highest order, 1 Th. 4:16; Jude 9. Others think that Michael the archangel is no other than Christ himself, the angel of the covenant, and the Lord of the angels, he whom Daniel saw in vision, v. 5. He came to help me (v. 13); and there is none but he that holds with me in these things, v. 21. Christ is the church’s prince”

    Scripture refers to Christ as the “First and the Last” and “First-Begotten of the Dead” in Revelation, Colossians calls him “First Born of Every Creature”, Corinthians calls Him the “First Fruits”, Ephesians calls Him the “Chief Cornerstone” and He is given many other names and titles throughout Scripture. To be called “First of the chief princes” would be in line with this and yet another example of His position of power and authority.

    Another argument made against the idea that Michael is the pre-incarnate Christ states that in Jude 1:9 we read that Michael the Archangel contended with Satan over the body of Moses and Michael said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke thee”. The argument contends that if Michael is the pre-incarnate Christ, then Michael would not need to say “the Lord rebuke thee” and would have just rebuked Satan himself because Michael would in fact be Lord. But this is exactly what the Lord says in Zechariah 3:2, “And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan…”. Zechariah 3:2 completely invalidates that argument and, if anything, appears to give further credence pointing to Michael as a Christophany.

    Moreover, it is interesting how some translations render Jude 1:9. The Greek word for “durst” is “tolmao” and it has a few different meanings, the first one which itself already tells us is not because of any sort of dread or fear:

    1) not to dread or shun through fear
    2) to bear, endure
    3) to bring one’s self to
    4) to be bold
    5) bear one’s self boldly, deal boldly

    Some translations use the word “durst”, some use “dare”. The ESV says “he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke you.” The RSV says “he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, The Lord rebuke you.” Wycliffe’s New Testament reads, “he was not hardy to bring in doom of blasphemy…”. The impression from Jude 1:9 appears to suggest that Michael knew that he did not need to prove Satan — the most powerful being ever created — wrong in order to win this dispute. All Michael had to say was “the Lord rebuke thee”, and it was done. Michael is presented as one who is extremely powerful and is called Archangel for a very good reason.

    But there are other pro arguments from Scripture as well, and the following questions would have likely been asked by leaders of old such as John Calvin, Matthew Henry, John Wesley and others who believed that Michael (whose name means “Who is like God”) was the eternal and pre-incarnate Christ:

    1. We read in 1 Thess 4:16 that when the Archangel’s voice is heard that “the dead in Christ shall rise first”. However, John 5:28-29 tells us that “all that are in the graves shall hear his [Christ's] voice and shall come forth.” Both verses use the Greek word “phōnē” – once for the Archangel’s voice, once for Christ’s voice, followed by the resurrection of the dead. Scripture implies that there is only one voice, not two separate voices. Why? Whose voice raises them from the dead?

    2. Scripture says that the created angels are commanded by Michael (Rev 12:7, “Michael and HIS ANGELS fought against the dragon”), but according to Matthew they are commanded by Christ (Matthew 24:31, “And he [Christ] shall send HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect…” Are they Michael’s angels, or are they Christ’s angels?

    3. The prophet Daniel gave Michael a lofty title in Daniel 10:21, calling him “Michael your prince”, but in the previous chapter Daniel called Messiah the prince in 9:25. Who is the prince of God’s people, Michael or Messiah?

    4. Daniel’s vision upon seeing Michael in Daniel 10:5-6 was as “a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz. His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude.” This is almost the exact description of the vision that John was given in Revelation 1:12-18 of Jesus Christ, “One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band … His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters … His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength”. Why do Michael and Jesus have virtually identical appearances?

    5. The title “Archangel” is from two words — “arch” which means “first, foremost, chief, principal” and “angel” which simply means “messenger.” So “Archangel” simply means first or chief of the messengers or angels. The Archangel is the captain of the angels. In Joshua 5:13-15 we have someone who is Divine that gives Himself such a title, whom Joshua worships as God:

    Joshua 5:13-15, “And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, ‘[Are] You for us or for our adversaries?’ So He said, ‘No, but [as] Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped, and said to Him, ‘What does my Lord say to His servant?’ Then the Commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, ‘Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand [is] holy.’ And Joshua did so.” (The KJV says “captain of the host of the LORD”).

    The pre-incarnate Christ calls Himself the Captain of the Angels of Heaven to Joshua, the precise meaning of the title Archangel. Why?

    Important: Everyone who reads this must understand what the Christian position is in this regard so that they do not equate this position to that of Jehovah’s Witnesses. JWs believe that Michael is Christ, but they make a FATAL mistake in believing that Christ is a created being. Scripture makes it undeniably, unquestionably clear that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, the Alpha and Omega, the Creator of all things who spoke and the universe leaped into existence, and is not a created being. So, even though JWs could be half right about Michael, their misunderstanding of the nature of God completely corrupts their teaching and, consequently, all of their theology. What the Christian position would be with respect to Michael being a Christophany is not the same position that JWs teach regarding Michael. This needs to be abundantly clear.

    Do I believe that Michael is the eternal and pre-incarnate Christ? Is Michael the name by which the Word of God was known in Heaven prior to being manifested in the flesh? I think that a strong case can certainly be made from Scripture. What anyone chooses to believe, however, is up to them. At the end of the day, never simply believe what anybody teaches because of who they are or what they were. Instead, test all things in light of Scripture, and hold fast to that which is good.

    • John Jacob Jingleheimersmith
      03/28/2012 at 11:47 PM

      Hey ICA, thanks for the awesome reply. I should rephrase the question within the proper framework for the sole purpose of clarification. Before I do that, I am totally on board with the scripture comparisons and explanations; I have nothing to disagree about. In meant no inference so to say that Michael is Jesus nor anything remotely close to the JW’s beliefs, beieve me.

      Actually, the question I asked was somewhat two-fold and mentally rehashed since the JW’s came (again) about a week ago. I presented them a question they weren’t ready to or couldn’t answer – they wanted to come back with the proper watchtower answer later, I declined politely and reminded them that if they wanted to continue to talk over me that this wasn’t a discussion but a lecture! Just sayin’.

      First I asked if Jesus was Michael, you know the following regurgitated mantra. I asked the JW elder if that is true, in the last days Michael would stand up for Israel in Daniel 12:1 previous to Chist’s coming. If Michael were actually the same person as Jesus Christ that would place Jesus in Israel, standing up for Israel, and his GLORIOUS coming would not be necessary? Why a glorious coming if he were already here? How would he be on earth and no Mt. of Olives, no masses of Holy Ones/angels, no worship? And if he is Michael in that setting why is Michael’s presence not as the glorious noticeable loud coming of Jesus with the trumpet, voice of the archangel, clouds, fire and angels etc? The topic and demeanour completely changed after the question. It is a simple yet complex because of their theology.

      For real for real, this blog is a goldmine. God bless

  19. John Jacob Jingleheimersmith
    03/28/2012 at 11:59 PM

    Oh yeah btw ICA, no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no pre-trib no

  20. ICA
    03/29/2012 at 8:17 PM

    JJ-JHS, “First I asked if Jesus was Michael, you know the following regurgitated mantra.”

    Hi Brother, in my view the issue with Jehovah’s Witnesses should not be with who they believe Michael to be, but rather with who they believe Jesus to be. There are many well-respected Christian teachers throughout history and even some today who view Michael as the Divine Christophanic “Angel of the Lord”, the pre-incarnate visible appearance of the invisible God. But none of them would agree with the JW position that Jesus was simply a created “mighty god”, and is not Almighty God. The fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was a created god astounds me in light of Isaiah 43:10, which clearly says:

    “‘You are my witnesses,’ declares the LORD, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.’”

    JJ-JHS, “I asked the JW elder if that is true, in the last days Michael would stand up for Israel in Daniel 12:1 previous to Chist’s coming.”

    I have a bit of a different understanding of Michael’s action in Daniel 12:1. To show you why I believe what I believe, I’ll need to begin by discussing 2 Thessalonians 2 and the Apostle Paul’s reference to the “restrainer.” In 2 Thess 2, Paul has two subjects in view:

    1) The “man of sin/lawlessness” (2:3 – Subject 1)
    2) A restrainer, (2:7 – Subject 2) — the principle here is described in personal terms as “he who holds back/restrains”

    2 Thess 2:3, “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.”

    2 Thess 2:7, “For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.”

    The Greek for “taken out of the way” is “ginomai ek mesos” and the word “ginomai” is a deponent verb (middle for active voice), so it need not mean removal by an outside force, but rather removal through a determined act on the part of the subject. That is to say, the Restrainer moves himself out of the way or the midst by stepping aside or getting out from in between. He stops restraining. To be “taken out of the way” does not mean to be completely removed as some suggest but simply means to cease from standing in between or to refrain from actively restraining. The closest English translation for 2 Thess 2:7 is found in the NLT:

    2 Thess 2:7, “For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.”

    Some have claimed that the “man of lawlessness” is the one restraining himself from being revealed, but the word for “restrain” is katechō and it carries with it the sense of seizing, or detaining, or hindering. Paul’s language does not imply that the “man of sin/lawlessness” is seizing or detaining or hindering himself from being unveiled. Rather, the language strongly suggests in my view that it is a separate subject entirely that is performing this determined action. In fact, to seize or detain or hinder implies an action that is being done against the will of the one being seized/detained/hindered. It makes little sense in my mind for the man of sin/lawlessness to be seizing/detaining/hindering himself against his own will. Rather, the texts infers that someone greater than the man of sin/lawlessness is restraining him by force.

    But this begs the question: Who is restraining the “man of lawlessness”? Is it the Holy Spirit or the Church as some others claim? I find no evidence for that in Scripture at all. But I do find strong evidence of something else entirely.

    When Paul told the Christians of Thessalonica about the revealing of the “man of lawlessness”, the one “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” (2:4) he was obviously alluding directly to the Prophet Daniel (Daniel 11:36-37) who spoke of the exact same event:

    Dan 11:36-37, “And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods … for he shall magnify himself above all.”

    In fact, Paul even continues by saying, “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” (2:5). Told them what things? The things that were written in the Book of Daniel. Keep in mind that up until then, the Old Testament was their only Scriptural reference to draw from. After Paul reminds them that he told them these things from the Book of Daniel, he then continues, “And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time” (2:6). So, given the fact that Paul references the end of Daniel 11, what else does Daniel say that Paul’s words would have caused them to remember? A few verses later Daniel writes:

    Dan 12:1, “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.”

    Here we discover that Archangel Michael has watched over the people of God throughout history and even today, but that a time would come when Michael will “stand up”. The Hebrew word for “stand up” in Dan 12:1 is “amad” (H5975) and it means “to stand aside or stand still, stop (moving or doing), to cease.” How do we know that this is the intended meaning? The context. We know because after Michael does this we read about “a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time”.

    Bingo. This should immediately sound familiar to us. 2 Thess 2:7 says “For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.” As was mentioned above, the word “ginomai” need not mean removal by an outside force, but rather removal through a determined act on the part of the subject. The Restrainer moves himself out of the way or the midst by stepping aside or getting out from in between, and once he does this THEN the “lawless one” will be revealed (2 Thess 2:8). Look at what Jesus says in Matthew 24:15,21:

    Matt 24:14,21, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place … then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

    This is exactly what the prophet Daniel said would happen when Michael steps aside, that “there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time,” and I believe that this is precisely what Paul reminded the Christians of Thessalonica about so that they would remember.

    Because of this, I believe that the restrainer is therefore Archangel Michael, and when the time comes for Michael to “amad”, all hell breaks loose. Literally.

    • John Jacob Jingleheimersmith
      03/30/2012 at 6:07 AM

      Hey ICA — Awesome info, I have also heard some of this teaching from an old friend of mine in New York. He dedicated himself to studying this subject specifically and almost to an obsessive level (every day and every conversation for a long long time hahahaha). It was solid for sure and his conclusion was that the restrainer would be Michael too.

      I admit that I have not taken the time specific to this subject of Michael being the Restrainer, but in many others, including the catching away, I have studied them out thoroughly to an obsessive Berean level. In my studies I get into languages too. I can appreicate and understand the explanations of Greek and Hebrew words, voice, mood, etc… As my own hobby/interest I have studied multiple languages since about 1998. Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic being my main pool.

      This weekend will be devoted to studying the restrainer, Michael and all the other material. Thanks again ICA and crew. JJ-JHS

  21. David lanham
    04/17/2012 at 4:56 PM

    Has anyone here ever read Matt 25…….the parable of the 10 virgins?
    Or;
    John 14;2
    Luke 21;36
    Matt 26;29

  22. ICA
    04/17/2012 at 5:06 PM

    David lanham, “Has anyone here ever read Matt 25…….the parable of the 10 virgins? Or; John 14;2 Luke 21;36 Matt 26;29″

    Hi David. FYI, I briefly speak on the parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 here, about John 14:2 in this article, about Luke 21:36 in this post, all to which I say “Amen” to Matthew 26:29.

    • David lanham
      04/17/2012 at 7:59 PM

      The 10 virgins clearly depict a pre trib rapture.That combined with the bride becoming the wife in rev 19 as well as the wedding supper being finished in heaven is a major obstacle for any post trib rapture.
      I have never seen any post trib scenario correctly place the return of Jesus for his bride,in the context of the bridegroom/bride pictured in heaven,as well as the wedding supper.

      Another insurmountable post trib obstacle would be the slaughter of every singe born again believer by the antichrist,leaving noone whatsoever to rapture at the end of the trib period

  23. ICA
    04/17/2012 at 8:51 PM

    David lanham, “The 10 virgins clearly depict a pre trib rapture.”

    Hi David, can you please demonstrate how, without first assuming a pre-trib rapture, the 10 virgins clearly depict a pre-trib rapture? Before you attempt to do so, here is something for you to consider that pre-trib teachers won’t teach:

    In “The Parables of Jesus,” Joachim Jeremias (authority on Jewish customs) quoted an earlier book written by his father in 1909, which describes the ancient Semitic wedding custom.

    “In the late evening the guests were entertained in the bride’s house. After hours of waiting for the bridegroom, whose coming was repeatedly announced by messengers, at last he came, half an hour before mid-night, to fetch the bride; he was accompanied by his friends; floodlit by burning candles, and received by guests who had come out to meet him. The wedding assembly then moved off, again in the flood of light, in a festal procession to the house of the bridegroom’s father, where the marriage ceremony and fresh entertainment took place.” [7] (emphasis mine)

    This ancient Semitic custom does not fit the pre-trib scheme, where the groom is alleged to arrive at the bride’s house secretly to snatch her away, without any warning. The Gospel accounts agree with Jeremias’ historical account, also implying that the date of the groom’s coming for his bride was fully planned and known by the bridal party prior to his arrival. Jesus’ parable of the ten virgins is strikingly similar to the custom described above by Jeremias. This passage of Scripture is the ONLY account of a Jewish wedding procession in the Bible dating around the time of Christ.

    Matt 25:1-10
    1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
    2 “Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    3 “Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
    4 “but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
    5 “But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
    6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’
    7 “Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
    8 “And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
    9 “But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’
    10 “And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
    (NKJV)

    In Jesus’ parable, all ten of the bride’s maids had their lamps and oil in them while they awaited the groom’s arrival. Are we to assume that the bride’s maids were all waiting for a full 12 months with their lamps burning? Hardly! The picture painted by Jesus was of ten virgins accompanying the bride at her home on the day of the groom’s planned arrival. He was scheduled to arrive half an hour before midnight in a grand procession, to take the bride to their new home where the wedding would take place. When the shout came that the groom was on his way, they took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

    They must have known the day of the groom’s arrival, otherwise they could not have known when to bring their lamps and assemble at the bride’s house! The whole purpose of the lamps was to participate in the festivities of the lighted procession once the groom arrived to fetch the bride. This fits perfectly with the custom described by Jeremias above. “In the late evening the guests were entertained in the bride’s house. After hours of waiting for the bridegroom,…”[8] Apparently, there was some delay in the groom’s arrival in Jesus’ parable. Jesus said they all fell asleep awaiting the groom’s arrival. At midnight the announcement was made, “behold the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet him.” This fits perfectly with the above custom as well. “After hours of waiting for the bridegroom, whose coming was repeatedly announced by messengers, at last he came, half an hour before mid-night, to fetch the bride; he was accompanied by his friends; floodlit by burning candles, and received by guests who had come out to meet him.”[9] In Jesus’ parable, the bridegroom was half an hour late. This is why the virgins fell asleep. Instead of arriving at 11:30PM according to custom, the announcement finally came of his impending arrival at midnight! Even then the bride’s maidens scurried around to trim their lamps. The foolish virgins were told to go quickly and buy oil for their lamps. This strongly implies that there was some expected time anticipated between the final shout and the groom’s actual arrival at the home of the bride. Alfred Edersheim writes: “The parable proceeds on the assumption that the Bridegroom is not in town, but somewhere far away; so that it cannot be known at what precise hour He may arrive. But it is known that he will come that night.“[10]. In Jesus’ parable, the foolish virgins expected that the groom might come while they were out buying oil. Therefore, both the historical and biblical data strongly refutes the idea of “imminence” at any time during the betrothal period except after the shout on the scheduled day of the groom’s coming.

    In his Sketches of Jewish Social Life, Edersheim wrote that the custom in Jesus’ day was to have the wedding on a Wednesday, allowing the first three days of the week for the bride to prepare herself for her groom’s coming.

    “The marriage followed [the betrothal ritual] after a longer or shorter interval, the limits of which, however, were fixed by law. The ceremony itself consisted in leading the bride into the house of the bridegroom, with certain formalities, mostly dating from very ancient times. Marriage with a maiden was commonly celebrated on a Wednesday afternoon, which allowed the first days of the week for preparation, and enabled the husband, if he had a charge to prefer against the previous chastity of his bride, to make immediate complaint before the local Sanhedrim, which sat every Thursday. … This circumstance enables us, with some certainty, to arrange the date of the events which preceded the marriage in Cana. Inferring from the accompanying festivities that it was the marriage of a maiden, and therefore took place on a Wednesday… On “the third day” after it, that is, on Wednesday, was the marriage in Cana of Galilee.” [11]

    Notice Edersheim stated clearly that the first three days (Sunday – Tuesday) were set aside for the bride to prepare. Since the day of the week was known (at least three days notice), it was impossible for a bride to be totally caught unaware, as pre-trib writers claim. The day of the groom’s coming for His bride was known by both bride and groom. It was also known by the bride’s maids who came to her home to await the groom’s arrival. And it was known by the friends of the groom, who accompanied him to the bride’s home to fetch her.

    The ONLY evidence we have in Scripture of the Jewish wedding customs, related to the arrival of the groom for his bride, is the parable of the ten virgins. And it does not support the pre-trib scheme! Rather, it supports a post-trib scheme, where there is some advanced warning. This fits perfectly with Jesus’ teaching in this very same Olivet Discourse. Jesus indicated a fixed period of time prior to His coming. The Gospel must be preached in all the world first. He outlined a series of signs that would occur just before His coming “immediately after the tribulation” [Matt. 24:29-31].”

    Read more.

    David lanham, “That combined with the bride becoming the wife in rev 19 as well as the wedding supper being finished in heaven is a major obstacle for any post trib rapture.”

    The text does not say that the marriage supper of the lamb is “being finished in heaven” anywhere, at any place, at any time. That is a pre-trib invention. Rather, the context of Revelation 19 is post-trib only and the marriage supper “has come” (erchomai), that is to say, it is coming into being per the Greek text. In fact, Revelation 19:2 even shows us that the Lord “hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.” The marriage supper of the Lamb does not come into being until after this judgement. According to John, the marriage supper is post-trib only, not pre-trib.

    “The context indicates this is the very end of the tribulation. Notice, those John saw rejoicing over the (past) destruction of Babylon were also rejoicing in anticipation of the “marriage of the Lamb” to come. The “Bride,” the true Church, is shown in direct contrast to this false church (Mystery Babylon). It is vitally important to recognize the sequence laid out in this passage. John did not describe any wedding or supper occurring here. He was a witness to a joyous bursting forth of anticipation on behalf of the ‘Bride’ after Mystery Babylon was destroyed. What John actually witnessed, after the destruction of Babylon, was the saints rejoicing because the time had arrived for the wedding of the Lamb. John then heard a pronouncement regarding the Bride’s wedding garments. Then he heard a blessing pronounced on those called to the wedding supper. Immediately, John saw heaven opened, and Christ descending, followed by the angelic armies of heaven. It is quite clear, from Revelation 19, that at the very end of the tribulation the marriage of the Lamb is still being anticipated right up until the second coming.

    Read more.

    David lanham, “Another insurmountable post trib obstacle would be the slaughter of every singe born again believer by the antichrist,leaving noone whatsoever to rapture at the end of the trib period”

    Where do you find the idea that Antichrist will slaughter “every single born again believer” on earth in Scripture? Also, when Paul says that “those who are alive and remain” in 1 Thess 4:15-17 will be caught up with Christ and the resurrected saints to meet them in the air, why does Paul use the word perileipomai for “remain”, which means those who survive? Survive what?

  24. David lanham
    04/17/2012 at 11:52 PM

    Quote;”Where do you find the idea that Antichrist will slaughter “every single born again believer” on earth in Scripture?”
    Rev 13;
    7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
    17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    Not that it matters,because no matter what,you are planted on the post trib position.But the parable of the 10 virgins in no wise fits the post trib.
    The door was shut(as in going into a place)……….not in post trib(remember you have the saints doing a u turn)
    The foolish were left outside……….nope
    Where does the Groom do the u-turn in the parable?
    Where is the bride hiding from locusts,hail,antichrist,and all hell breaking loose?
    Where is the white horse the groom is suppose to be riding,to make war?
    Where are the ones dressed in white riding their white horses alongside the groom?
    You can’t even force fit a marriage supper because the groom never breaks his stride in his return to battle antichrist.

    You cannot possibly be serious to think the groom in the parable is the same as Jesus coming in rev 19.?????

    BTW the bride is now called the wife in rev 19.She is no longer the bride.
    God bless

  25. 04/18/2012 at 12:06 AM

    ICA, nice research and explanation on the parable of the 10 bride’s maids/virgins, thanks.

    A couple of (very) tangential thoughts:

    1. I believe in a Wednesday crucifixion and Jesus in the grave Weds, Thurs & Friday nights, with a resurrection after sundown on the Sabbath. 3-1/2 days, or 3 days and 3 nights, in the grave. Too long to go into now about why this makes sense to me (other than scripture declares it!!), but I note that the wedding festival as you described it took place midweek also.

    2. A 2015 return intrigues me, as we’ve previously discussed. From timeanddate.com I found this:

    Monday Sep 14 Rosh Hashana (New Year)
    Tuesday Sep 15 Rosh Hashana II (New Year day 2)
    Wednesday Sep 23 Yom Kippur

    For kicks I looked at ’12, ’13 and ’14; in 2012 these three holidays land on the same days of the week as 2015, but not in 2013 or 2014.

    As you know I see Rosh Hashanah as the more likely return of Yeshua, with the ‘sheep and the goats’ falling on YK, but obviously this is conjecture.

    I’m sure David lanham thinks I’m out of my mind.

    • ICA
      04/18/2012 at 1:00 AM

      Our pre-trib brothers & sisters think all non-pre-tribbers are out of their minds. And then many of them become post-trib. :)

      • anonymous astronamous
        04/18/2012 at 11:29 AM

        If we start from the facts and work outward,a lot of sentences could be eliminated.

        Problem is …….we cannot even begin to agree on the facts/absolutes.

  26. ICA
    04/18/2012 at 12:30 AM

    David lanham, “Rev 13;7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations…”

    Hi Brother, the pre-trib view assumes that this is referring to the whole literal planet. According to the full counsel of Scripture, however, there are many problems with that assumption. For example, if Antichrist’s rule is literally global, why are other nations waging war against him and why is he himself waging wars? (Daniel 11:39-45). How can “all” mean literally “all” if even one nation — for example Jordan — is able to “escape his hand” (Dan 11:41)? If Antichrist rules the world, why is he so worried about news coming out of the east and the north (Dan 11:44)?

    Many will point to certain verses and take from those specific verses the idea that Antichrist rules the entire literal earth, while ignoring many others which suggest that he will not. For example:

    Rev 13:8, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

    Zechariah 14:2, “For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity…”

    Are the verses above referring to literally every single person upon the earth, and to literally all nations in the world? I say no, it does not, and to understand why we need to first consider the verses below and determine if “all” should always be understood to be universal:

    Luke 2:1-3 “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL THE WORLD should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And ALL went to be taxed, every one into his own city.”

    Mark 1:5, “And there went out unto him ALL the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were ALL baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”

    Daniel 2:36-38, “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them ALL. You are that head of gold.”

    Ezra 1:2, “Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD Elohim of heaven hath given me ALL the kingdoms of the earth;”

    Romans 10:18 “But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into ALL THE EARTH, and their words unto the ends of the world.”

    Using a bit of common sense we already know the answers to the following questions, but in light of the verses above let’s ask the obvious: Did Caesar literally tax the whole world? Did every last man, woman and child in Judea and Jerusalem get baptized in the Jordan River? Did Nebuchadnezzar or Cyrus literally rule over the entire earth, ruling over the native Indians in North and South America? Was the Gospel preached to the whole literal earth during the lives of the disciples? We know that the answer to each of these questions is no. The verses above are obvious example of a figure of speech known as a synecdoche. It is like saying “the whole world watched the Super Bowl on Sunday.” It is obvious that such a statement was never meant to be taken literally. It is simply an expression that uses a part for the whole, or the whole for a part. Likewise, we see this expression in Scripture, especially when we read about kings and their kingdoms, and the end-of-days leader that many identify as Antichrist is no different.

    Read more.

    David lanham, “But the parable of the 10 virgins in no wise fits the post trib.”

    I think it might be beneficial to re-read what I quoted from Tim Warner in my previous post. There is also a link there that addresses the misunderstandings taught by pre-tribism quite well.

    David lanham, “Where does the Groom do the u-turn in the parable?”

    It’s right there in the original Greek. Let’s see what Scripture says. Paul says that when Christ descends, the dead in Christ are resurrected to Christ and then we will be caught up to meet them in the air (1 Thess 4:16-17). Now here’s what you haven’t been told. The word “meet” is the Greek word “apantesis”, and this word only occurs here and in three other places. In Vocabulary of the Greek Testament by G. Milligan and James Hope Moulton, “The word apantesis seems to have been a kind of official welcome of a newly arriving dignitary – a usage which accords excellently with its NT usage.” And indeed it does! In Matthew 25:1,6 it describes the virgins going out to meet the bridegroom, to escort him back into the house. In Acts 28:14-16 it is used to describe brethren from Rome coming out to Appii Foru, to meet Paul and his company, and then escort them back to Rome. In each example of “apantesis”, the escort back is immediate. We don’t have them going out to meet the subject, then going to where the subject came from for days, weeks or years, and then escorting the subject back. That was not the custom. The subject who was coming is met by those who are already at his destination. And what is His destination? Where we are — earth. When Christ comes back to Earth, we will go out to meet him, and where ever He goes, we go, and He is going to Jerusalem to set His feet upon the Mount of Olives.

    Zech 14:4-5, “And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, [Making] a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee [through] My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, [And] all the saints with You.

    What is Scripture saying? It is saying that we are not removed to conveniently go to Heaven. Those of us who are alive and remain (the Greek word means those who survive) are transformed from corruptible to incorruptible, and we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air per the “apantesis”, which means that we immediately escort Him back to earth — ie. Jerusalem — which is consistent with its usage in each of the other verses of Scripture. The pre-trib position, however, suddenly changes the intended meaning of the word. Instead of us escorting Jesus back to Earth immediately for His Second Coming, the pre-trib position has us conveniently going to Heaven instead, which the text does not say anywhere, at any place, at any time.

    In Greek culture the word “apantesis” had a technical meaning to describe the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who had gone out from the city for this purpose and would then be ceremonially escorted back into the city. Apantesis was often used to suggest the meeting of a dignitary or king, a famous person, describing people rushing to meet the one who was coming. For instance, when a Roman emperor approached a city, the leading citizens went out to welcome him and had the honor of processing into the city with him. This whole event was described as the “apantesis.”

    Apantesis from apantáo from apó = from + antáo = to come opposite to, to meet especially to meet face to face describes a meeting especially a meeting of two who are coming from different directions.

    The Early Church Father John Chrysostom (347-407) comments on this passage by saying the following: “If he (Christ) is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge…

    The text teaches a post-trib understanding, not a pre-trib understanding.

    David lanham, “Where is the bride hiding from locusts,hail,antichrist,and all hell breaking loose?”

    The “Church” is the Bride of Christ, but your question assumes that the Church is merely comprised of Gentile believers in Jesus. Let’s take a look to see what Scripture has to say about the Bride of Christ.

    In Hosea 2:14,16,19 we read, “Therefore I am now going to allure her (Israel) … ‘In that day,’ declares the Lord, ‘you will call me ‘my husband’; you will no longer call me ‘my master… [and] I will betroth you to me forever.’”

    God seems to be saying here that Israel is the Bride of Christ. Does Scripture confirm this elsewhere?

    Revelation 21:9-12, “And there came unto me one of the seven angels … saying, come hither, and I will shew thee the bride, THE LAMB’S WIFE. And he … shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem … which had a wall great and high, and twelve gates… and names written thereon which are the NAMES OF THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL.”

    Not convinced? Then let’s allow to Word of God to speak one more time in this regard:

    Isaiah 54:4-5 says, “For you [Israel] will forget the shame of your youth, And will not remember the reproach of your widowhood anymore. For YOUR MAKER IS YOUR HUSBAND — the LORD Almighty is his name — the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth.”

    Jesus Christ — the Lamb of God — is the One who created all things (Col 1:16, Rev 4:11). He is Israel’s Creator. He is Israel’s Maker. And through Him, we are no longer excluded from citizenship of Israel and are no longer foreigners and aliens, but are now fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household (Ephesians 2). The New Testament ‘Gentile’ Church is not the Bride. The New Testament ‘Gentile’ Church does not replace the Bride. As a part of Israel — as a part of Jacob — both believing Jew and believing Gentile are together the Bride of Christ. As I explain here, we should not view believing Jews as being a part of the Church because they believe in Jesus, but rather it is we as Gentiles who are now a part of the Church because we believe in Yeshua. It existed in the Old Testament all along:

    Acts 7:36-38, “He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church (ekklesia G1577) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us”

    1 Corinthians 10:2-4, “And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    Contrary to what pre-tribism would have you believe, the Church did not begin at Pentecost. It was increased at Pentecost. Pre-tribism teaches that today’s body of Gentile Christians is the “ekklesia”, that Gentile Christians alone are the Bride of Christ, and in doing so is inadvertently teaching a form of replacement theology.

    David lanham, “You can’t even force fit a marriage supper because the groom never breaks his stride in his return to battle antichrist.”

    What is the “marriage supper” according to Scripture? Is it a feast of food? Will fish and chicken be served? Or is it referring to something else? …

    • anonymous astronamous
      04/18/2012 at 11:19 AM

      PS , I am AA now instead of David L. :)

      You are complicating the parable into oblivion.
      There is nothing at all there to make the assumption it is referring to a post trib rapture.
      You are all over the page trying to make it fit.
      You did not address the obvious.The parable is overly simple,as are all the parables.
      The illustration is so obvious.The Groom/Jesus……..the virgins/the church
      Nowhere is your uturn even remotely pictured.
      Nowhere is there ANY persecution of the Virgins/church

      On the contrary,the parable fits pre trib o a “T”
      The groom comes ,not on a white horse,but as a intimate gatherer for his bride/church
      The “worthy” virgins go into a place with the groom.(No uturn in any wedding)
      The ones left behind are left to wrath(Just as the scriptures depict pre trib rapture)
      The ones “watching” are obedient.Just as we are commanded to watch.(Not watch for antichist)
      The groom tarries,just as we are witnessing today.
      You would have to have some thing there to DEPICT a warrior return on a white horse that has the bride never reaching the bridal chamber.
      To simply make that jump with no such depiction is reaching,to put it mildly.

      You could be right,that a handful of Christians escape the wrath of the ant-christ.But you assume that is possible.You can’t prove it.In fact,you assume he has no “Brown shirts/SS”
      Ever hear of the 10/40 window? I think neither of us would have the anticrist looking in icy caves for believers.But it is a stretch to read that All,”Both small and great rich and poor,freed and bond receive the mark”(And clearly the ant-christ destroys those that don’t) and then to go into a great “teaching” trying to prove that the church is left in tact till the 7 years of trib/wrath are completed.

      BTW, of course nations war with the a-christ. It says in rev 13 he overcomes them all.(power over ALL nations)
      Much of what you say is assumptions.You should ask me what I believe instead of ascribing ridiculous absurdities to me.(as in all Christians are gentiles). The Jerusalem you refer to is in heaven.It is the new Jerusalem. But why on earth would you have anyone assume all Christians are gentile?

      Is that “Pre trib assumes that” preamble necessary for every sentence you make :)

      I don’t know of any pre tribber that would not agree that Jesus comes back after the trib

      Quote”The ONLY evidence we have in Scripture of the Jewish wedding customs, related to the arrival of the groom for his bride, is the parable of the ten virgins. And it does not support the pre-trib scheme! Rather, it supports a post-trib scheme, where there is some advanced warning. This fits perfectly with Jesus’ teaching in this very same Olivet Discourse. Jesus indicated a fixed period of time prior to His coming. The Gospel must be preached in all the world first. He outlined a series of signs that would occur just before His coming “immediately after the tribulation” [Matt. 24:29-31].”

      Note WHERE the elect are gathered; “From one end of HEAVEN to the other”

      29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

      30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

      31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    • 04/20/2012 at 4:23 PM

      Good stuff ICA. I see you linked skydiver’s stuff; I had to download them all before I lost internet a year ago. Did he release his book yet? God bless, over and out – John Jacob Jingleheimersmith aka The Squashbuckler.

      • ICA
        04/20/2012 at 9:21 PM

        Hi brother, yep Steven released his book last year some time. Here it is.

        • JJ JHS
          04/21/2012 at 1:13 AM

          Awwww man. He said he was going to come out with a free e-book when I emailed him in 2010. But oh well, good to hear this. I really like his vids. Peace in the middle east. JJ JHS

  27. Willard
    04/18/2012 at 12:32 AM

    Kurt Ive argued with myself for many years on the 3 days and three nights – Technically / Legally if we read Mark one could make an argument that the typical understanding of the crucifiction and resurection was three days – understanding that the Jewish day began at sundown and v42 would appear to be saying – as evening APPROACHED which indicates before sundown (day of preperation) would be before Sat or fri day one – that we have the Sabbath until eveing on the Sat day two and from sundown Sat to after sunrise the first day of the week would be Monday. So technically his death was over three days even though they were not 3 full 24 hr days and night ???

    Mk 15:42 It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached,

    Mk 16:2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb

  28. 04/18/2012 at 10:30 AM

    Willard, at this point, this is how I see the crucifixion timing: http://www.centuryone.com/crucifixion.html

    Due to changes in the calendar, I don’t know that we can, with any sense of certainly, determine the exact year of the crucifixion, and so I don’t think the year can either determine the truth or falsehood of this view. I realize the “Torah calendar”, “Bethlehem Star” and others believe they DO know the year.

  29. ICA
    04/18/2012 at 12:27 PM

    anonymous astronamous, “The ones left behind are left to wrath(Just as the scriptures depict pre trib rapture) … You could be right,that a handful of Christians escape the wrath of the ant-christ.”

    Hi brother, it seems to me that you’re under the false impression that Christians will not be on earth to suffer any sort of wrath at all. If that is true, why are we now seeing a genocide of Christians taking place right now as we speak in Islamic nations? Why are so many Christians being beheaded, blown up, shot, stabbed, tortured, imprisoned, etc? Where is their pre-trib rapture? There is a very common misunderstanding amongst pre-trib adherents which asserts that “not appointed unto wrath” somehow infers that the Church will not be present during the tribulation and the time of Antichrist. Again, however, pre-tribism doesn’t take the time to understand what the text is really saying.

    First, let’s begin by looking at all the verses which tell us that we are not appointed to wrath, or are saved from wrath:

    1 Thess 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

    1 Thess 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”

    Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

    Eph 5:6, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

    Next, let’s look at the Greek word specifically used for “wrath” in each of these verses to better understand what we are studying:

    1 Thess 1:10, — The wrath that we will be delivered from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    1 Thess 5:9, — The wrath that we are not appointed to is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    Romans 5:9, — The wrath that we are saved from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    Eph 5:6, — The wrath upon those who are disobedient is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    Easy enough. We are saved from, or not appointed to suffer, the “orge” wrath of God. Now let’s examine the “wrath” that is described in Revelation. The word “wrath” itself is found 13 times in English translations of Revelation, but in the Greek text the word translated as “wrath” is not just from the Greek word “orge”. It is from two separate words: “orge” and “thymos.” The “orge” of God that we are promised to be saved from according to each verse above is only found six times. And here’s the kicker — each time “orge” is used it is always in a post-trib context only:

    1 and 2. It is mentioned after the cosmic signs and the revealing of Christ Jesus (Rev 6:16-17). Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms that these signs happen immediately after the tribulation (Matt 24:29).

    3. It is found after the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:18). (When the 7th and last trump begins to sound we find the rapture described in Revelation 10).

    4. It is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (Rev 14:10).

    5. It is found after the seventh bowl (Rev 16:19). (The trumpets and bowls are two sides of the same coin. They are separate descriptions of the same event. The trumpets are the cause and the bowls are the effect).

    6. It is used in connection with Christ’s Second Coming (Rev 19:15).

    Moreover, according to Revelation the thymos wrath is directed upon a very specific group only — the Antichrist, his land, his kingdom, those who have received the Mark of the Beast, those who worship the image of the Beast, those who have shed the blood of the saints (see Rev 16). Those upon whom the bowls of thymos are being poured are still given the opportunity to repent, but they refuse (Rev 9:20-21; 16:9-11). But when the orge wrath comes, however, there is no such provision for repentance. I believe that we will be here on earth witnessing these events right up until the beginning of the seventh and last trumpet, at which point we are gathered to Christ just before the orge wrath.

    This, therefore, is telling us that the orge wrath that we are saved from is not the same type of wrath that we find during the Great Tribulation. It is only immediately after the tribulation at the Second Coming of Christ. As such, even if the rapture does not happen until immediately after the tribulation we are still saved from the “orge” of God as promised, yet still be present to witness the “thymos” wrath of the first six trumpets/bowls upon the Antichrist, his kingdom, and his people (for more on Antichrist and his kingdom, see here).

    The Difference Between “Orge” and “Thymos” Wrath

    So, what’s the difference between “orge” wrath and “thymos” wrath? We should first be aware that some incorrectly assume that these two words have essentially the same meaning, however if that were the case then why did the Holy Spirit inspire the writers of the New Testament to use them both, and at times why were they both used in the same verse? Obviously, though they could have similar meanings they must, therefore, be qualitatively distinct. Here are some examples where they are both used in the same verse:

    Col 3:8 – “But now ye also put off all these; anger (orge), wrath (thymos), malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth”

    Rev 14:10, “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath (thymos) of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation (orge); and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”

    Rev 16:19 – And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness (thymos) of his wrath (orge).”

    thymos – sudden passionate anger; anger boiling up and subsiding again
    orge – deliberate anger; indignation; hostile vengeance

    Truth be told, the trumpets are themselves not even called wrath anywhere at all really. As I mentioned above, however, I view the trumpets/bowls as opposite sides of the same coin where the trumpet is the cause and the bowl is the effect. So knowing that the bowls are called the thymos wrath of God associates, to me, the trumpets with thymos wrath as well.

    Every time in Scripture we read that we as believers are not appointed to wrath, or will be delivered from wrath, it is always the orge of God which is found in a post-trib context only. In this orge the anger will not subside, it will not abate. It is not a punishment to chasten and invoke repentance like thymos, because when the orge of God comes it is then too late.

    anonymous astronamous, “But you assume that is possible. You can’t prove it.”

    The Apostle Paul already does. He says that there will be those of us who survive.

    anonymous astronamous, “BTW, of course nations war with the a-christ. It says in rev 13 he overcomes them all.(power over ALL nations) Much of what you say is assumptions.”

    It is not an assumption. Scripture reveals it for us. The word for “earth” in Revelation 13:8 is “gē” and it also means “a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region”. It need not be referring to the whole literal earth. If it did, the Holy Spirit would have likely inspired John to use the word “kosmos” which would then convey such a meaning. Is Revelation 13 talking about a specific region only, and not the whole literal earth? Let’s look at what Zechariah says:

    Zechariah 14:2, “For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity…”

    Who are all the nations? The Hebrew text says “goy cabiyb” and this can very easily mean the surrounding Gentiles or the Gentiles round about. Are there any verses in the context of Antichrist and his coalition that specifically state the nations with the Antichrist are only all of the nations surrounding Israel? Yes.

    Zechariah 14:14 “Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the SURROUNDING NATIONS will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.”

    Zechariah 12:2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the SURROUNDING PEOPLES reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.”

    Joel 3:11-12 “Hasten and come, all you SURROUNDING NATIONS, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the SURROUNDING NATIONS.”

    Ezekiel 28:24-26 “‘No longer will the people of Israel have malicious NEIGHBORS who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. ” ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their NEIGHBORS WHO MALIGNED AGAINST THEM. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God.’”

    Although the Antichrist will want to rule the earth and force his religion, his ideology, his image of how this world should think and act upon everyone on the planet, he will not be able to do so. When Christ returns Scripture lists the nations that He fights against by name, and every nation that is identified in Scripture is today an Islamic nation. I don’t believe that Zechariah would claim literally all nations on the planet in 14:2, and then turn around and say just the surrounding nations in verse 14:14. Logistically, it would be an impossibility for literally every nation on earth to amass troops, tanks, aircraft, personnel carriers, etc. etc. etc. in one Israeli valley. In the context of Zechariah 12 it is quite apparent to me that Zechariah is referring only to the surrounding nations, as he had already wrote about previously in 12:2 and then again later in 14:14. The prophets Joel and Ezekiel confirm this as well. In light of the whole counsel of Scripture the Antichrist’s rule and political influence will be relegated to the whole MUSLIM world, but not the world as a whole.

    Daniel 11:44-45, “But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.”

    anonymous astronamous, “I don’t know of any pre tribber that would not agree that Jesus comes back after the trib”

    That’s good, brother. And according to Scripture, He can only come back after the tribulation, not before it. Notice the following two verses:

    In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 we read, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”

    Acts 3:21 says that, “He [the Lord Jesus] must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.”

    According to the Old Testament prophets, God does not restore everything until the Second Coming when Christ destroys Israel’s enemies and sets up His Millennial Kingdom. The Greek text in 1 Thess 4:16 says that Christ will descend (katabainō –> to come down [from another place]) from (apo –> separation) heaven. According to the text, Christ cannot “descend from heaven” yet still “remain in heaven” at the same time. Scripture is again teaching a post-trib understanding, not a pre-trib understanding.

    anonymous astronamous, “Is that ‘Pre trib assumes that’ preamble necessary for every sentence you make”

    Pre-tribism is a teaching that is based upon nothing but assumption. It assumes a pretrib rapture, and then interprets Scripture to conform to a pre-trib understanding, instead of allowing our understanding to conform to Scripture. For example, according to pre-trib teachers the “blessed hope” is somehow a pre-trib rapture, yet it fails to consider what the Apostle Paul was referring to in the epistle of Titus:

    Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7, “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began … Looking for that blessed hope [eternal life], AND the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ… That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

    Paul uses the word “hope” three times in his epistle — at the beginning when speaking about eternal life and then later while referring to that blessed hope, and then once more again near the end. Each time he is referring to the blessed hope of eternal life. Nowhere does Paul ever say that the “blessed hope” is a pre-trib rapture. We are looking for the blessed hope of eternal life, and (in addition to) the glorious appearing of Christ. The Greek includes the word “kai”, which the NIV does not incorporate in the English translation, unfortunately.

    The glorious appearing is the “epiphaneia” (G2015) and there is something that is very important about the “epiphaneia” of Christ that very few pre-trib teachers will discuss:

    2 Thess 2:8, “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness [epiphaneia G2015] of his coming

    The “epiphaneia” is post-trib. If we are to believe that the “blessed hope” of eternal life is actualized at the “epiphaneia” of Christ, then we must therefore also believe that the blessed hope is His post-trib appearance and gathering of the elect. This means that Scripture is, yet again, teaching a post-trib rapture, not pre-trib.

  30. anonymous astronamous
    04/20/2012 at 2:19 AM

    Quote;”Pre-tribism is a teaching that is based upon nothing but assumption. It assumes a pretrib rapture, and then interprets Scripture to conform to a pre-trib understanding, instead of allowing our understanding to conform to Scripture.”

    Man,that is so vile and blatantly false.I almost did not respond to such belligerence.

    I already showed you where i stand,I defended my position with scripture,And yet you stereotype the lot of all that would dare disagree with you into the “assumers that have no scriptural understanding”.

    You cannot explain away rev 19,nor the assumption on your part that “nations” is only what you want it to be.Which is so reaching and ridiculous , you now have “this gospel shall be preached to a ’100 mile radius’ of the world ,and then shall the end come” Instead of the obvious “whole world”.(all nations)
    Matthew 24:14
    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.(Will await another theological 10 page apology on how Nations really means “10 block area”
    You cannot explain away the 10 virgins,and the thought of the u turn is ludicrous.
    You have Jesus promising non existing mansions,You have the obvious “all” in rev as meaning “some”
    You have practically every pivotal word in rev 19 meaning something it does not.

    Quote; “If that is true, why are we now seeing a genocide of Christians taking place right now as we speak in Islamic nations? Why are so many Christians being beheaded, blown up, shot, stabbed, tortured, imprisoned, etc? ”

    Why in the world do you accuse others, practically with every sentence , of “Assuming” when you seem to operate in assumptions?
    You erroneously ascribe wild things to me that are remarkably far fetched. I mean,where does this come from?You really assume I think no Christian ever suffers anything because I defend Pre trib Rapture?
    Your error is based on your vantage point.You define all the end times through the prism of the tribulation.The correct vantage point is the “eternal”,which is heavens vantage point.

    You go through that whole 800 word teaching on how the church goes through wrath and it is easily thumped off with these simple verses(With millions or billions of martyrs from antichist ,in heaven,DURING the trib period)…………you cannot possibly park there after I have clearly showed you this fact!!!!
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

    16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

    It is abundantly clear that “all” either take the mark or are beheaded.
    Revelation 20:4
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    (These are possibly billions that antchrist kills)
    Quote “………..instead of allowing our understanding to conform to Scripture. For example, according to pre-trib teachers the “blessed hope” is somehow a pre-trib rapture, yet it fails to consider what the Apostle Paul was referring to in the epistle of Titus:………”
    More assumptions on your part. You could say it either way,and it would not make or break anything with me . I get my info from the word personally. But I say to you POTKETTLE :)
    Now,lets just “assume” that you are right and some do escape from the antichrist.
    What of the millions that didn’t?They were in no wise in the number of “protected in the midst of the wrath”………. which voids that position.In fact,now something new is introduced! The devil is given power over the saints!
    Have you not seen ?Revelation 13;7
    It even says that power was given to the antichrist to overcome(kill) the saints.That is exactly inverted from Jesus exaltation to believers!
    “Luke 10:19″Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you”

    Now why would the dispensation of Luke 10;19 be over? All of a sudden,not only are the saints without an umbrella,but power is given to the enemy of God’s people.

    It would appear also that the reason the stinging locusts were not commanded to skip over the saints(they were only commanded to not sting the 144k jews) is that they are already dead from the antichrist(who was given power to kill them)
    IOW there are no saints on the planet to sting.So where are they????
    Here they are!….. 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    No man could number??? HMMMMM must be billions!!! Where was their protection that leads them to the end of the trib period??? Kinda like NOWHERE??? It sure looks like the harmony of scripture lies in pre trib rapture!

    Post trib has fallen mightily!

    Just with the parable of the 10 virgins alone;
    You have no virgins coming to destroy anything with a conquering warrior leading them
    You have no u turn
    You have no warrior groom
    You have no place to go with the 5 left behind ones.
    You have no conqueror on a white horse.
    In fact you have not one single horse.
    You have no warring king/groom passing up the virgins to destroy a world leader.
    You have,not even a hint of a half destroyed world and sea,with dead bodies ,locust fiery hail,etc,………not even a hint of this.

    Besides the fact that you cannot possibly reconcile the fact that “buying and selling,marrying and giving in marriage” is impossible with the earth and it’s inhabitants praying “let the rocks fall on us that we might die” And you somehow are able to place normal bustling commerce and normal daily life as the backdrop for the brides catching away when you have to admit it cannot be so at the end of the trib period.

    Watching for antchrist in lieu of Jesus (Remember,Jesus cannot possibly come back till the end of the trib period) is a huge red flag.(Just this alone makes post trib a red flag)

    But all this combined with Jesus words “I go and prepare a place for you…….”
    And his words “I will not drink of the vine again till I drink it a new with you in my fathers kingdom” and……. Rev 19;7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    In fact,you have exactly what it is,an intimate return with a shut door and the bride and groom in a marriage chamber(heaven) with the door shut.

    There is no door shut(as in the par of the 10 virgins) in rev 19 with the warrior king leading his army of saints,and rev 19 clearly depicts the bride becoming the wife,the marriage supper(I know you have a way to make it into something else),and the saints,with the martyrs,on white horses going to earth,not to pick up the bride(Oh the ridiculousness of post trib) but to kill the antichrist and his army.

    To quote your well versed lines with the proper adjustments”Post trib assumes way too much”
    “If you did not already assume post trib,you could not possibly come to your conclusions”

    Just kidding.I realize you have a huge investment in post trib. :)

    God bless

  31. ICA
    04/20/2012 at 12:39 PM

    anonymous astronomous, when I read your response I envision this picture of someone pulling their hair out, arms flailing. Please realize brother that the timing of the gathering is a peripheral doctrine, and one that we need not divide over. We can debate it vigorously, and that is a good thing, and understand that we are brothers in Christ who are solid on the essentials of our Christian faith.

    Having said that, let it be known that I use to be a pre-trib believer for most of my Christian life so I am quite familiar with pre-tribism and am fully aware why many assumptions are required in order to believe it. The pre-trib hermeneutic always begins with the assumption of a pre-trib rapture. Scripture is interpreted through a pre-trib lens. This is a fact, and I tell it like it is.

    Having said that, let’s take one or two items at a time.

    anonymous astronomous, “you now have ‘this gospel shall be preached to a ’100 mile radius’ of the world ,and then shall the end come” Instead of the obvious ‘whole world’.(all nations)”

    No, not at all. There is no geographical limitation in the text anywhere with respect to the preaching of the Gospel. It is to be preached to the whole literal world. Matthew 24:14 says that “this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikoumenē - the inhabited earth] for a witness unto all nations [pas ethnos – every ethnic group/tribe”. Matthew 26:13 says, “Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world [kosmos - the world, all of humanity]). The original text makes the meaning clear. It is the whole world, not a “100 mile radius”.

    anonymous astronomous, “You cannot explain away the 10 virgins,and the thought of the u turn is ludicrous.”

    The parable of the 10 virgins has already been addressed. But what is your response to “apantesis”? I look forward to your reply.

  32. Norma Jean Bloom
    08/18/2012 at 10:36 AM

    Soon and very soon we are going to see the King!

  33. loseyateefa
    11/09/2012 at 9:23 PM

    Have any of you heard of the Rapture position known as “Pre-Wrath”? Simply, it places the return of Christ at the 6th Seal and initiates the 7th Seal which is the Day of the Lord. It blends what is right about Pre-Trib (not experiencing GODS wrath) and deals with the problems of the Post Tribulation return. These 3 Pre-wrath sites explain it well.

    http://prewrathrapture.com/

    http://www.biblefragrances.com/studies/prophecy.html

    http://www.answersinrevelation.org/

    I created an Excel 2010 spreadsheet graphic available for download at:

  34. ICA
    11/09/2012 at 9:49 PM

    Hi loseyateefa, thank you for your comment. Yes I’ve heard of the Pre-Wrath position. The position that I hold is one that it Post-Trib *and* Pre-Wrath, not simply a Pre-Wrath only position as presented by Marvin Rosenthal and the websites above.

    There are some points with Pre-Wrath that I agree with, but overall in my view it still suffers from some of the same problem as the Pre-Trib position by separating the gathering (rapture) from the Second Coming of Christ. It also misidentifies the wrath that we are spared from specifically (read more about this wrath in the article “Lost in Translation: ‘Not Appointed Unto Wrath’ – What Scripture Is Really Saying“). In my view, the wrath that we are spared from is the wrath that we only see happening the day of the Second Coming, and the rapture and Second Coming are one and the same, not two separate events.

    The Seals Of Revelation

    While I agree that the return of Christ is at the Sixth Seal, where I differ with the Pre-Wrath position is with respect to the placement of the Sixth Seal itself. In my view, it is post-tribulational. This can be easily demonstrated due to the fact that the seals of Revelation 6-7 parallel Matthew 24. Allow me to explain.

    John begins Revelation 6 by describing the “Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse”, which appears to be the four separate stages of the eschatonic Beast of Revelation upon the earth — Islam — providing us with a general overview of the last 1400 years until immediately after the tribulation. Due to the Semitic style employed by John, he then does a “rewind” to shift his focus on the judgements that take place during and immediately after the tribulation (called “trumpets”), and then refocuses his “camera” once again upon the end-result effect of each one of the seven judgements (called “vials” or “bowls”). The seventh seal, seventh trumpet and seventh bowl all end together right around the same time in the eschaton. This Semitic writing style is something that we also find in the Genesis account regarding creation, which is why some skeptics claim that there are two different creation accounts when in fact there is only one.

    Here are all of the parallels between Revelation 6-7 and Matthew 24. This should help to solidify the placement of specific events, and I’ll also pay particularly close attention to the details surrounding the sixth parallel itself:

    Parallel 1:

    * Matthew 24:5 — Many will come in Christ’s name and deceive many.
    * Revelation 6:2 — The 1st Seal – White horse and rider with bow who is given a crown; went out conquering and to conquer.

    (In “The Best Biography of Prophet Mohammed“, Islamic scholars Grand Muhaddith Master Abdullah Ben Sadek, Anne Khadeijah Darwish and Ahmad Darwish write that, “In the Koran, Allah calls His Prophet, praise and peace be upon him, by many blessed names … In his sayings one finds many other names that were frequently used by his Companions and followers. These include names such as the: Chosen, Selected, Father of Kasim, the Beloved, Messenger of the Lord of the Worlds, Accepted, Intercessor, the Fearfully Aware, Amender, Outward, Guardian, Truthful, Confirmer, Guide, Master of the Children of Adam, Master of the Messengers, Leader of the Fearfully Aware, Leader of the Glorious Radiant Ones, Beloved of Allah, Friend of the Merciful, Possessor of the Visited Pool, Intercessor, the Praiseworthy Station, Possessor of Means, Excellence and the High Degree, Possessor of the Crown …” In the Islamic world, Mohammed is regarded as “the greatest of all the prophets and messengers of God and the crown of all creation” (source).

    Some may say that the crown of Revelation 6:2 must be literal. But if the horse and rider are obviously symbolic, it only stands to reason that the crown be symbolic as well. According to Islamic lecturer Ahmed Deedat, “Moses and Muhammad were Prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God’s creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch – if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment – He is a King” (Source).

    We know that Christ is God. He is the Prince of Peace. Although Mohammed, who received the crown of “prophethood” before his conquests, and his followers acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah and claimed to be following the true faith of God which they even call the “Religion of Peace”, Mohammed’s teachings denied Christ’s divinity and denied the Triunity of One God while claiming to be the final prophet of God. He claimed to come in the name of God, but he deceived everyone who followed him and who follows him to this very day. Walid Shoebat once described Islam as a “Christian Cult”, to which I would agree. And a particularly devious one at that).

    Parallel 2:

    * Matthew 24:6-7 — Wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom.
    * Revelation 6:3-4 — The 2nd Seal – Red horse to take peace from the earth.

    (Behold the fruit of Islam: Jihad. Islamic jihad has been the greatest mass murderer in the history of humanity. “Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the victims of jihad. The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest… The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam. In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad. Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school.” FrontPage Magazine Feb. 2007. And it continues to this very day).

    Parallel 3:

    * Matthew 24:7 — Famines, pestilences and earthquakes.
    * Revelation 6:5-6 — The 3rd Seal – Black horse bringing famine.

    (Take a look at the heart of the Islamic world today. What is it characterized by? Desert. Famine. Destitution. Both spiritual and physical. And these are the sort of conditions that precipitate all sorts of pestilences, plagues, and any number of “commotions” — the Greek word for “earthquakes” is “seismos” and also means “commotion” or “tempest”, as in Matthew 8:24, “And suddenly a great tempest [seismos] arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered with the waves…”. Islam is a prime example of missing the mark of God — “hamartia” or “sin” — and the whole of creation groans and labors with birth pangs because of it, cf Romans 8:22).

    Parallel 4:

    * Matthew 24:15 — The Anti-Christ and the Abomination of Desolation.
    * Revelation 6:7-8 — The 4th Seal – Pale (Green) horse with Death and Hell.

    (John describes the “fourth horseman” as being “chlōros”, literally translated as “green”. Green is the official color of Islam. He is described as having power over the fourth part of the earth. Islam today has dominion over a fourth part of the earth. He has the power to “kill with sword.” Islam is spread through Jihad, the “Sword of Islam.”  He also kills with hunger/famine. When Islamists rise up, deprivation often follows. He kills with “death”, and the love of death in suicide operations for the cause of “Allah” permeates Islamic culture, so much that Islamists openly declare to “love death more than you love life.” Lastly, he is described as killing with “the beasts of the earth.” The Greek word “thērion” here is, I believe, being used metaphorically to refer to “savage”, “brutal” and “bestial” men — a perfect description of what we’re witnessing today in the radical world of Islam’s death seekers. And if Antichrist is a man, he is on the verge of being revealed).

    Parallel 5:

    * Matthew 24:9-13, 15-22 — Great Tribulation. Many are delivered up to be afflicted and killed. Many fall away from the faith.
    * Revelation 6:9-11 — The 5th Seal – Saints in heaven are told that fellow servants are to be killed.

    (We are beginning to already see this today. Islamic persecution of Jews and Christians has ratcheted up over the past few years and is set to explode. In my view, we are already within the 5th seal, which will soon encompass Great Tribulation of the final 1260 days / 42 months / time, times and the dividing of time spoken of by the prophet Daniel and John in Revelation).

    Now notice the 6th Parallel. I’ll include some verses and break it down into individual parts:

    Parallel 6a:

    * Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”

    This corresponds with:

    * Revelation 6:12-13, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood, And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth …”

    Parallel 6b:

    * Matthew 24:30, “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

    This corresponds with:

    * Revelation 6:15-17, “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains, And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

    Parallel 6c:

    * Matthew 24:31, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

    This corresponds with:

    * Revelation 7:1-4,9,14 “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God … Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel … After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands … these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation.”

    In Revelation 7 “And after these things I saw …” is a continuation of the post-trib signs that John witnessed at the 6th Seal a few verses earlier (the text is inspired but chapter and verse divisions were added later by men). After John sees the post-trib cosmic signs he then witnesses the gathering of the elect — the 144,000 and then the great multitude that the angel says in Rev 7:14 “are the ones who come out of the great tribulation”. In order to come out of the great tribulation, they had to be in it. (See the article called “The 144,000 and the Great Multitude – It’s Not What You May Think” for more thoughts in this regard).

    Hope this helps. Feel free to let me know if you have any questions. God bless …

    • Ready_Eddy
      12/10/2012 at 12:31 AM

      Very very interesting view that the four horsemen are four stages of Islam upon the earth. That certainly gives it a whole new understanding, and it makes sense if the beast that John talks about later is in fact Islam.

  35. 10/04/2013 at 9:57 PM

    Paul was unaware of the book of Revelation as it had not been written before he died. Paul never referred to any of the trumpet judgments of the book of Revelation in any of his letters. Why would you think that he was referring to one in one place only?

    Paul was a student of the Old Testament. The trumpet he was referring to was the “great trumpet” of Isaiah 27:12-13. That trumpet is the last trumpet that calls the final remnants of Israel back to the land. It coincides with the rapture of the Church, as God is about to revert to dealing with the world through Israel!

    That will also coincide with the end of the Ezekiel 38-39 war, several years after the Psalm 83 war! Satan is going to make Christians think they are going through the Tribulation when in reality it is just two OT prophesied pre-trib wars!

    The Lord Jesus is not a husband who beats up his bride on their wedding night!

  36. ICA
    10/05/2013 at 2:19 AM

    dknezacek, “Paul was unaware of the book of Revelation as it had not been written before he died. Paul never referred to any of the trumpet judgments of the book of Revelation in any of his letters. Why would you think that he was referring to one in one place only?”

    Hi dknezacek, thank you for visiting the blog and for your comments. The answer to your question is quite simple when we really think about. As I mentioned in the article’s closing paragrah, the Holy Spirit knows the end from the beginning and knew full well that as Paul was being inspired to write his letters to the believers in Thessalonica and Corinth that the Book of Revelation and everything that would be written in it would be revealed later. The suggestion that the last trumpet of 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 could not be the last trumpet of Revelation 10 because the Book of Revelation wasn’t written yet is an argument that diminishes the omniscience of God by inferring that Scripture is merely human in origin, not inspired by the Holy Spirit. As you and I both know, however, all of Biblical Scripture is inspired by an all-knowing God, and for good reason.

    dknezacek, “Paul was a student of the Old Testament. The trumpet he was referring to was the “great trumpet” of Isaiah 27:12-13.”

    According to Isaiah 27:13, when the trumpet is blown “they will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, And shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.” Isaiah 27:12-13 supports a post-trib rapture (which has us going to Jerusalem with Jesus as He sets His feet upon the Mount of Olives), not a pre-trib rapture (which teaches that we’ll all be whisked away to Heaven).

    Allow me to expand on this for a moment. In 1 Thess 4:16-17 Paul says that when Christ descends, the dead in Christ are resurrected to Christ and then we will be caught up to meet Christ and the resurrected saints in the air. The word “meet” is the Greek word “apantesis”, a very special word that only occurs here and in three other places in Scripture. In Vocabulary of the Greek Testament by G. Milligan and James Hope Moulton, “The word apantesis seems to have been a kind of official welcome of a newly arriving dignitary – a usage which accords excellently with its NT usage.” In Matthew 25:1,6 it describes the virgins going out to meet the bridegroom, to escort him back into the house. In Acts 28:14-16 it is used to describe brethren from Rome coming out to Appii Foru, to meet Paul and his company, and then escort them back to Rome. In each example of “apantesis”, the escort back is virtually immediate. We don’t have them going out to meet the subject, then going to where the subject came from for years, and then escorting the subject back. That was not the custom. The subject who was coming is met by those who are already at his destination. And what is His destination? Where we are — earth. When Christ comes back to Earth, we will go out to meet Him, we will remain in the air temporarily until the indignation/wrath is complete, and where ever He goes, we go, and He is going to Jerusalem to set His feet upon the Mount of Olives.

    Zechariah 14:4-5, “And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, [Making] a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee [through] My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, [And] all the saints with You.

    In Greek culture the word “apantesis” had a technical meaning to describe the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation of them, who had gone out from the city for this purpose and would then be ceremonially escorted back into the city. Apantesis was often used to suggest the meeting of a dignitary or king, a famous person, describing people rushing to meet the one who was coming. For instance, when a Roman emperor approached a city, the leading citizens went out to welcome him and had the honor of processing into the city with him. This whole event was described as the “apantesis.”

    Apantesis from apantáo from apó = from + antáo = to come opposite to, to meet especially to meet face to face describes a meeting especially a meeting of two who are coming from different directions.

    What is Scripture saying? It is saying that we are not removed from the Earth to conveniently go to Heaven while all hell breaks loose down below. Those of us who are alive and remain (the Greek word means those who survive) are transformed from corruptible to incorruptible, and we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air per the “apantesis”, which means that we escort Christ back to earth — ie. Jerusalem — which is consistent with its usage in each of the other verses of Scripture. The pre-trib position, however, suddenly changes the intended meaning of the word (again). Instead of us escorting Jesus back to Earth for His Second Coming, pre-tribism has us conveniently going to Heaven instead, which the text does not say anywhere, at any place, at any time.

    Proverbs 10:30, “The righteous will never be removed, But the wicked will not inhabit the earth.”

    dknezacek, “That will also coincide with the end of the Ezekiel 38-39 war, several years after the Psalm 83 war”

    Psalm 83 is a prayer, not a prophetic oracle, and any answer to the prayer of Psalm 83 can only be observed at the conclusion of Israel’s final battle, brought to a decisive and irrefutable end through Divine intervention at the Second Coming of Messiah. Obviously, Israel’s enemies cannot be “confounded and dismayed forever” (83:17) and know that the God of Israel is God (83:18) if they are involved in yet another war several years later only to be confounded and dismayed forever yet again and learn that the God of Israel is God, yet again (cf. Ezek 39:3-7). For your conideration, please see this article to find out why.

    dknezacek, “The Lord Jesus is not a husband who beats up his bride on their wedding night!”

    God doesn’t drag His Bride through the mud. He drags her out of it (see here). His wrath is directed upon the ones doing the persecuting, not the one being persecuted (see here). As for the “wedding night”, the Book of Revelation does not place the marriage supper of the lamb during the tribulation anywhere in the text. That is a pre-trib invention. Rather, the context of Revelation 19 is post-trib only and the marriage supper “has come” (erchomai), that is to say, it is coming into being per the Greek text. In fact, Revelation 19:2 even shows us that the Lord “hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.” The marriage supper of the Lamb does not come into being until after this judgement. According to John, the marriage supper is post-trib only, not pre-trib.

    “The context indicates this is the very end of the tribulation. Notice, those John saw rejoicing over the (past) destruction of Babylon were also rejoicing in anticipation of the “marriage of the Lamb” to come. The “Bride,” the true Church, is shown in direct contrast to this false church (Mystery Babylon). It is vitally important to recognize the sequence laid out in this passage. John did not describe any wedding or supper occurring here. He was a witness to a joyous bursting forth of anticipation on behalf of the ‘Bride’ after Mystery Babylon was destroyed. What John actually witnessed, after the destruction of Babylon, was the saints rejoicing because the time had arrived for the wedding of the Lamb. John then heard a pronouncement regarding the Bride’s wedding garments. Then he heard a blessing pronounced on those called to the wedding supper. Immediately, John saw heaven opened, and Christ descending, followed by the angelic armies of heaven. It is quite clear, from Revelation 19, that at the very end of the tribulation the marriage of the Lamb is still being anticipated right up until the second coming” (see here).

    dknezacek, “Satan is going to make Christians think they are going through the Tribulation when in reality it is just two OT prophesied pre-trib wars”

    They are not pre-trib wars. I would also encourage you to read the article titled “What Is The War Of Gog-Magog“. God Himself declares in Ezekiel 39:8, ”Behold, it is come, and it is done … this [is] the day whereof I have spoken.” He has revealed Himself to both Israel and to the nations at Gog-Magog. How can God say “It is done” when, according to the pop-eschatology position of many prophecy teachers today, it is not done until about seven years later at Armageddon? Moreover, if God had declared that He spoke of any “pre-Armageddon” battle before, where is it mentioned in Scripture? The only day in the eschaton that the Lord and the prophets spoke of previously is the Day of the Lord — Armageddon. The view that many of today’s teachers support, however, suggests that all of the Magog nations that Christ destroys — nations that the text tells us in no uncertain terms will know from that point forward that the God of Israel is God (Ezekiel 38:16, 23; 39:7, 21, 23) — suddenly and conveniently all develop a case of collective amnesia to yet again form another coalition in order to yet again gather against Jerusalem, only to be destroyed yet again by Christ a few short years later. Such a position is a highly tenuous, to say the least.

    After reading the articles mentioned above, I’d love to hear your comments or questions. Hope this help. God bless!

    ICA

  37. Anonymous
    10/20/2013 at 8:39 PM

    This was a very good study and really opened my eyes. But one of the main things that keeps me believeing in a pre/mid trib rapture that u left out is Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Also I believe the last trump he is describing is the last trump at the feast of tabernacles. Remember the Bible is still based around the Jewish people. Like Gods appointed times. Love all and hopefully We’ll all see eachother soon!

  38. ICA
    10/20/2013 at 10:35 PM

    Anonymous, “This was a very good study and really opened my eyes. But one of the main things that keeps me believeing in a pre/mid trib rapture that u left out is Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

    Hi Anonymous, thank you for chiming in. Many use Luke 21:36 to support a pre-trib rapture, so let’s take a brief moment to look at Luke 21:36 contextually. I’ll begin with a few preceding verses:

    Luke 21:25-28, “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars… At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

    Many who assume a pre-trib rapture often point to “begin” and say it only means the first few signs mentioned earlier in the chapter, but Jesus says “When these things begin to take place” after describing the cosmic signs that we are told happens immediately after the tribulation in Matt 24:29-31. The fact that Jesus does not say “when these things begin to take place” before mentioning those post-trib signs is very significant.

    A couple of verses later in Luke 21:31 Jesus says, “when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand”, and again these things include the cosmic signs and the coming of the Son of Man immediately after the tribulation mentioned a few verses earlier.

    Now let’s look at Luke 21:34-36:

    Luke 21:34-36, “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, [referring to "that day"] and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

    What day is “that day”? Jesus just gave us cosmic signs that Joel 2:31 says will happen just before the Day of the Lord, but immediately after the tribulation according to His own words in Matt 24:29.

    Joel 2:31, “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.”

    Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”

    According to its very own context, “that day” in which Jesus is referring to in Luke 21:34 is therefore the Day of the Lord. It is the day of Christ’s judgment, of His Divine Wrath – the “orge” that we as believers are not appointed to suffer (1 Thess 5:9). The Greek for “escape” in Luke 21:36 is “ekpheugō” (G1628) and is used elsewhere to refer to escaping the judgment of God (Romans 2:3).

    The Apostle Paul even parallels this perfectly when telling us about the gathering of the elect (rapture):

    1 Thess 5:2,4,6, “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the nightBut ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief… Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.”

    So how do we escape? Paul ties in the Day of the Lord with the gathering in 1 and 2 Thessalonians, and tells us to watch for that day just as Jesus does in Luke 21:36. Since we know that the Day of the Lord takes place immediately after the tribulation (read here), the escape — and therefore the gathering — is post-trib as well.

    Anonymous, “Also I believe the last trump he is describing is the last trump at the feast of tabernacles.”

    The Feast of Tabernacles is a Fall Feast. At the very least, if the “last trump” is at the Feast of Tabernacles — which takes place only during the Fall — then this destroys one of the main foundations of the pre-trib view, the doctrine of imminency (see previous comments above). This pre-trib doctrine contends that the rapture can happen at any time. If the “last trump” takes place during the Feast of Tabernacles, and if the Feast of Tabernacles is a Fall Feast, then the rapture cannot take place at any time. It can only take place at a very specific, appointed time. This seriously weakens the pre-trib view, but not the post-trib view.

    Hope this helps! Let me know if you have any questions. God bless …

  39. Bart
    10/26/2013 at 11:47 AM

    14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

    If all is at this stage raptured, who are the remnant and what are the two prohets trying to achieve? Logic says to me if all is raptured that the Lord want’s to be the elect, why bother with the remains?

    The Bible is filled with earthly interventions and places of safety, furthering the question, out of my non comprehension of all the above in Biblical context and historic fact, making no sense. Why would the dead be meeting Jesus in the air if they are supposedly in Heaven already?

    The Exegis used here is not reconcilable, my opinion that is based on my understanding of the whole Bible, with all scripture and is out of place with the way of Noah, the Exodus or with Elijah in the desert, to name a few.

  40. ICA
    10/30/2013 at 11:32 AM

    Hi Bart, thank you for your comment. If I understand you correctly, then yes, the pre-trib view is a very tenuous position to take that is at odds with numerous portions of Scripture time and time again. For instance:

    * The “Blessed Hope” is eternal life that is actualized at Christ’s post-trib appearance. It is not a pre-trib rapture (cf. Titus 1:2; 2:13; 3:7).

    * The “First Resurrection” of the dead in Christ only happens after tribulation, not before. If there is no resurrection before the tribulation then a pre-trib rapture is impossible (cf. Rev 20:4-5; 1 Thess 4:16).

    * The “wrath” that we are not appointed unto is the “orge” wrath only, which is itself only found in a post-trib context in Revelation (cf. 1 Thess 5:9; Rev 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:10; 16:19; 19:15).

    * We are explicitly told we may experience tribulation right up until Christ’s glory is revealed. He does not reveal His glory until “immediately after the tribulation” (cf. 1 Pet 4:12-13; Matt 24:29-31).

    * The “rapture” is clearly outlined in Revelation 10 at the seventh and last trumpet, which is post-tribulational (cf. 1 Cor 15:52; Rev 10:7).

    * The marriage supper of the Lamb only takes place after the Lord judges the “great whore” and avenges “the blood of his servants at her hand.” This is post-tribulational only (cf. Rev 19:2).

    * We are told by Christ to even watch for the post-trib “cosmic signs” and to be ready in Him so that we can escape all these things in “that Day” — which is the Day of the Lord, His post-trib return and judgment of the wicked (cf. Luke 21:25-36; Matt 24:29).

    I could go on, but I’ll digress. God bless! :)

    • Bart
      10/31/2013 at 3:07 PM

      Hello,

      Thank you for your reply it is appreciated, yes you understood the point i was trying to make correctly.

      It is sad that we do not read the bible, I myself only started 18 months ago, it when we do not know what it says, and does not say that we diverge and believe the non scriptural interpretations.

      Our Lord Jesus himself gave us the “TRUTH” when he prayed for his disciples and all of us to our Father in heaven:

      Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in Your Truth; Your Word is Truth.
      Joh 17:18 As You have sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world,
      Joh 17:19 and I sanctify Myself for them, that they also may be sanctified in Truth.
      Joh 17:20 And I do not pray concerning these only, but also concerning those who will believe in Me through their word;

      Thus we are to know the Word and become like the Bereans, searching the scriptures daily to see if we are in the Truth, to quote

      2Ti_3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

      Eph_4:14 so that we may no longer be infants, being blown and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the sleight of men, in craftiness to the deceit of error,

      2Ti_4:3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts, they will heap up to themselves teachers tickling the ear;

      I pray that we may have more opened eyes and willing minds to fulfill the will of God.

      Alas I am very passionate about the subject and do not wish to digress either.

      God bless you and your readers and all those who he calls in this age.

      Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is the one having part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

      I hope we may discover how to be counted worthy for this honor……

Comment pages
  1. 03/26/2011 at 12:27 AM
  2. 04/10/2011 at 7:32 PM

The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of MidnightWatcher's Blogspot. Although differences of opinion are welcomed, please refrain from personal attacks and inappropriate language. This blog reserves the right to edit or delete any comments that fail to do so.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 13,224 other followers

%d bloggers like this: