Home > Radical Islam, Theology and Eschatology, Wars and Rumors of War > Does Psalm 83 Describe the Next Mideast War?

Does Psalm 83 Describe the Next Mideast War?


I have also believed for some time that any answer to the prayer of Psalm 83 could only be observed at the conclusion of Israel’s final battle, brought to a decisive and irrefutable end through Divine intervention at the Second Coming of Messiah. It is good to see some prominent pre-trib adherents reconsidering Psalm 83 and any prerequisites needed to satisfy its fulfillment, as pointed out by Richardson below. Now they just need to re-examine the details surrounding Gog-Magog

By Joel Richardson – “Throughout the Christian church, an idea that has gained much traction in recent years holds that the next major Middle Eastern war is described in Psalm 83. According to this view, a contingent of Arab nations that immediately surround Israel will soon make an attempt to invade her, only to be utterly defeated by the Israeli Defense Forces. Many even believe that as a result of this great victory over her neighbors, Israel will literally come to occupy the nations of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. This growing view also holds that after this period of victory and peace, another massive war, this time described in Ezekiel 38 and 39, will follow. If one peruses several of the larger online Bible prophecy discussion forums, it will quickly become apparent just how widespread this view truly is among prophecy students.

But few of these students of prophecy are aware of the many problems with this view. For the past few years, I’ve been highlighting several of these problems, but recently, both Dr. Thomas Ice, the executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, and Pastor Mark Hitchcock, another very well-accomplished prophecy teacher and author, have also articulated several of the problems with the popular interpretation of Psalm 83.

The first problem is that most scholars reject the idea that Psalm 83 is even an actual prophecy, but is simply, ‘a national prayer of lament.’ Such a Psalm would not be considered a prophecy in the sense of that which was uttered by the biblical prophets.

Second, even if one does consider Psalm 83 to be a prophecy in the proper sense, the primary reason many have come to accept this two-war scenario is because of the differences between the nations listed in Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 and 39. While Psalm 83 lists what are often referred to as the ‘inner circle’ of nations that immediately border Israel, Ezekiel 38 and 39 lists a series of nations that form a larger ‘outer ring’ around Israel including Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Libya and, many argue, Russia. But a closer examination of both texts reveals that it is far more likely that these two passages speak of the same war.

If one examines the list of nations in Psalm 83, few analysts include the nation of Turkey. Yet Asaph, the writer of this Psalm, mentions that ‘Assyria’ (v.8) will join this coalition. When this Psalm was written during the reign of King David, the Kingdom of Assyria included portions of modern-day Iraq, Syria and Turkey. Analysts of Psalm 83 have included both Iraq and Syria in their coming invasion scenario, but never Turkey. Yet the reality is that the Assyrian Kingdom during the time the Psalm was written included quite a bit more of modern Turkey than Syria. This is significant, of course, because Turkey features so prominently in the Ezekiel 38 & 39 prophecy.

The Assyrian Empire c. 950 B.C. during the reign of King David

The Assyrian Empire c. 950 B.C. during the reign of King David

Another name mentioned in Psalm 83 are the Ishmaelites. Many analysts of Psalm 83 use this name to point exclusively to the nation of Saudi Arabia. However, many Arabs today trace their lineage back to Ishmael. Muhammad himself, the founder of Islam, believed himself to be a direct descendant of Ishmael. Depending on how one interprets the term ‘Ishmaelites,’ then, the inclusion of this term could point us to much of the Islamic Middle East and North Africa, including Libya and Sudan. These nations also feature prominently in the Ezekiel 38 and 39 prophecy.

Another problem with looking to seeming surface differences between these two texts is that many scholars and prophecy analysts believe that Ezekiel 38 and 39′s list of nations is anything but comprehensive. In fact, as Mark Hitchcock points out, the prophet concludes his list of nations by adding the phrase, ‘and many nations with you.’ In other words, Ezekiel only listed one major modern nation from each of the four corners of the compass so as to highlight the massive scale of this coming regional invasion. The following map represents the nations specified by Ezekiel revealing the likelihood of this interpretation.

The invading nations of the Ezekiel 38 and 39 Prophecy. Turkey: north, Iran: east, Sudan: south, and Libya: West.

The invading nations of the Ezekiel 38 and 39 Prophecy. Turkey: north, Iran: east, Sudan: south, and Libya: West.

In the end, if one understands Ezekiel 38 and 39 more accurately, it would seem to be pointing to a massive regional war against Israel including ‘many nations’ not necessarily specified or mentioned within the text. And if we consider the nations mentioned in Psalm 83, if it is an actual prophecy, then it is also far more likely to be speaking of a much larger invasion than most students of prophecy have understood it.

Beyond this, Mark Hitchcock also lists several more similarities between these two texts, further suggesting that they are ultimately pointing to a singular war:

Both texts speak of a plan coming into the minds of the participants or the leader to invade Israel (Psalm 83:4,5; Ezekiel 38:10).

Both texts speak of the purpose of the invasion to wipe Israel out as a nation (Psalm 83:4; Ezekiel 38:9).

Both texts speak of the armies actually turning on each other and attacking one another while in the land (Psalm 83:9; Judges 7; Ezekiel 38:21).

Both texts speak of the judgment of God on the armies through fire (Psalm 83:14; Ezekiel 38:22).

Both texts speak of the result of these wars being that the invaders come to know the Lord in their defeat (Psalm 83:18; Ezekiel 39:7).

In the end, it is clear that tensions in the Middle East are very high. War could be just around the corner. We must pray that this is averted! The day will surely come when all of the prophecies of the Bible will be completely fulfilled. But for now, I am of the opinion that the scenario many students of prophecy are looking for, namely the soon victory of Israel over her neighbors and the subsequent occupation of those lands is a total fantasy. When Jesus returns, only then will genuine justice fill the region. But until then, we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.” Source – WND.

  1. 01/30/2012 at 11:51 PM

    I think Joel is right.

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  2. Anonymous
    01/31/2012 at 2:15 AM

    He gave a couple of really good messages this past month. You can download them here:

    http://roehisrael.podbean.com/

    Don’t hear enough good teaching like this. Such a blessing.

    AHF

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  3. 01/31/2012 at 3:23 PM

    Assad may start regional war if UN tells him to step down – Gulf sources

    In confidential conversations with his advisers, Syrian President Bashar Assad is reported by Persian Gulf sources Tuesday, Jan. 31 to have threatened to start up armed hostilities in the region if the UN Security Council Tuesday night endorses the Arab League proposal for him to step down and hand power to his deputy….

    …Sunday, Jan. 29, the nuclear submarine USS Annapolis, escorted by the guided missile destroyer USS Momsen sailed through the Suez Canal to the Red Sea. This looked like a Washington warning for Tehran to keep its military fingers out of Syria if the confrontation there escalates.

    It was not the first time Assad has threatened Syria’s neighbors. On Aug. 9, 2011, four months into his savage crackdown against protesters, he warned Turkey that, six hours after the first shot was fired against Syria, he would “destroy Tel Aviv and set the entire Middle East on fire.”

    That was his answer to Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmed Davutoglu when he came to Damascus with a demand from his and other NATO governments that the Syrian ruler stop the slaughter. .

    Davutoglu urged Assad to take a look at Libya and try to understand that if he carried on, he might be in for the same fate as Muammar Qaddafi – a strong hint at military intervention by NATO, including Turkey.

    Earlier still on May 10, one of Assad’s close kinsmen, the international tycoon Rami Makhlouf, warned: “If there is no stability in Syria, there will be none in Israel. No one can be sure what will happens after that. God help us if anything befalls this regime.”

    http://www.debka.com/article/21696/

    Both Syria and Iran are about to blow up.

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  4. ICA
    01/31/2012 at 5:01 PM

    Thanks for the links AHF & Kurt.

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  5. 01/31/2012 at 8:29 PM

    Thanks AHF, I just listened to both podcasts. Easily the best and clearest presentation of what scripture predicts prior to and at the return of Yeshua. Some great insights, particularly the comparison of what Antiochus did with what the Beast/AC will do.

    The one (very little) quibble I have with Joel, well actually two, is:

    1. The idea of a 7-year trib, which I’ve argued with previously and elsewhere
    2. The abomination of desolation passages in Matt and Luke that I think were predictive of 70 AD and not the end, end times.

    I wonder if Joel foresees an actual, individual “Antichrist”, or whether the system of Islam qualifies as Beast/A.C.? He seems to believe the former. I lean toward the latter, with the understanding that of course some one has to be in charge — the Mahdi, perhaps?

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  6. 01/31/2012 at 8:37 PM

    Israel wil not be victorious until the second coming (Ezekiel 39:11f). I agree w Joel in part, however, i see Iran as the big player, not Turkey. I also think Joel is correct that Psalm 83 does not prophesy of a specific battle but a never ending enmity between the sons of isaac and those of Ishmael and Esau.
    Jack Smith

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  7. Anonymous
    01/31/2012 at 10:25 PM

    Agreed, Kurt. The Lord has given Joel such a gift for breaking end time prophecy down to such simple terms. And, it all syncs perfectly with the facts on the ground as they are unfolding this very moment.

    As for #1 – I’m not “married” to either scenario – I’m watching for either/or. I seem to recall once hearing Joel express the same thought, but don’t quote me on that. :)

    And, #2 – my problem with the idea that the AofD being fulfilled already is that Jesus directly linked it to that which was prophesied by Daniel, and He then went on to say that never before nor again would there be such a great tribulation – to the extent that no life on earth would be left if the days were not shortened. The razing of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was horrific, no question – over a million were killed, but there have certainly been worse times of tribulation since then. The Holocaust comes to mind. How can His words have been fulfilled in 70 A.D.?

    On Psalms 83 – it is interesting, isn’t it, that 10 nations are mentioned?

    AHF

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  8. Anonymous
    01/31/2012 at 10:36 PM

    Also, on the beast/AC – I do believe Joel teaches that the “beast” will be the Islamic system which will come into power as a neo-Caliphate, and that the Mahdi, or Calipha or whatever they will call the leader of the Caliphate, will be the A/C. Of course, his new book is coming out in September which looks like it will address this very issue.

    AHF

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  9. ICA
    01/31/2012 at 11:55 PM

    Kurt, “The abomination of desolation passages in Matt and Luke that I think were predictive of 70 AD and not the end, end times.”

    It’s a common view that is held by some Christians. Personally, I do not believe that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD was the AoD’s fulfillment.

    Consider Zechariah 5 and the vision of the flying scroll that Zechariah was given. The angel tells Zechariah that “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land” at the appointed time (5:3). The Prophet Zechariah then writes that “the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, ‘Look up and see what this is that is appearing.’ I asked, ‘What is it?’ He replied, ‘It is a measuring basket.’ And he added, ‘This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land.’ Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman” (Zech 5:5-7).

    I would argue that this is representative of the “Harlot” or “Whore of Babylon” (Rev 17:5) and her religion: Islam.

    Zechariah continues, “He said, ‘This is wickedness,’ and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed the lead cover down over its mouth. Then I looked up–and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth. ‘Where are they taking the basket?’ I asked the angel who was speaking to me. He replied, ‘To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When it is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.'” (Zech 5:8-11).

    I don’t think it just a coincidence that this “woman” would be set up in “Babylon” (Shin`ar). The Babylonian Empire encompassed areas of Saudi Arabia (the birthplace and spiritual homestead of Islam) to the south, to parts of Asia Minor (Turkey) in the north, and from Egypt in the west to Persia (Iran) in the east. This area is today the epicenter of Islam.

    Now to my point. First, when we engage in this sort of discussion, we often refer to the Abomination *of* Desolation, which almost infers that it is the desolation that is the abomination. However, I believe that it is best understood that it is not the desolation itself that is the abomination, but rather it is the abomination that causes the desolation. This is even how the NIV translates the Greek text into English. Second, one thing that I find intriguing about the “curse” that goes out over the whole land is that the word for “curse”, and even how it is pronounced, is the Hebrew word “alah”. The Prophet Isaiah, in describing the condition of the earth at the time leading up to the Second Coming of Messiah, says that “the curse [alah] has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate” (Isa 24:6). Those who dwell in the earth, or those who dwell in the curse? To dwell in the earth does not in and of itself make one “desolate”. But the same cannot be said for those who dwell in the “curse.”

    Now my question is this: What “abomination” could we now say today “stands in the holy place” that would be directly related to the “alah”, and is responsible for not only spiritual desolation, but the physical desolation of hundreds of millions since it first stood? Could there be a dual fulfillment — one fulfillment in history, and one soon coming?

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  10. Willard
    01/31/2012 at 11:58 PM

    Amos chap 1 & 2 and Jer 25:15 to 38 also echo and add to Psalm 83

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  11. ICA
    02/01/2012 at 12:14 AM

    jack :

    Israel wil not be victorious until the second coming (Ezekiel 39:11f). I agree w Joel in part, however, i see Iran as the big player, not Turkey. I also think Joel is correct that Psalm 83 does not prophesy of a specific battle but a never ending enmity between the sons of isaac and those of Ishmael and Esau.
    Jack Smith

    I see both. In Daniel’s divided kingdom we may be looking at the leader of the Shia branch of Islam (Iran) and the leader of the Sunni branch of Islam (Turkey). Although Islam unites the two, it is also what divides them. Perhaps the “Mahdi” or one common goal could unite them for a time, at least right up until “every man’s sword shall be against his brother” (Ezek 38:21; cf. Zech 14:13).

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  12. Willard
    02/01/2012 at 12:23 AM

    Attached link shows the empire of Babylonia from 606 – 536 BC the period of the 70 year captivity – if this map is accurate it covers the area where we find Mecca and Medina today – just North of these two cities are some major volcanic feilds which have become active again about ten years ago after being dorment for over a thousand or more years – which may be the fires that will destroy her

    Babylonian Empire

    Zechariah continues, “He said, ‘This is wickedness,’ and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed the lead cover down over its mouth. Then I looked up–and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth. ‘Where are they taking the basket?’ I asked the angel who was speaking to me. He replied, ‘To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When it is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.’” (Zech 5:8-11).

    I wonder if these women do not represent the Sunnis and the Shiites – the two women with wings like a stork and the woman in the basket – the stork was known as an unclean bird.

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  13. 02/01/2012 at 10:42 AM

    Willard, AHF, ICA,

    I agree with the interpretation of Zech 5 and the basket.

    ICA: “one thing that I find intriguing about the “curse” that goes out over the whole land is that the word for “curse”, and even how it is pronounced, is the Hebrew word “alah”. The Prophet Isaiah, in describing the condition of the earth at the time leading up to the Second Coming of Messiah, says that “the curse [alah] has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate” (Isa 24:6).”

    This is also amazing and intriguing, and may refer to the AoD; certainly it seems too coincidental to not be intentional. I’m not sure it obviates my current belief.

    I have almost no time to develop this, but last night after reading these posts I reread Mt, Mk and Lk passages again. Both Mk and Lk start out with two questions and not three: When will this happen and what will be the signs?” in reference only to the destruction of the temple. In those answers Jesus refers to the AoD specifically; in Mt there are those two questions and third “what will be the signs of your coming?” He also mentions the AoD in the section that addresses the signs of the destruction of J. In all three he goes on to talk about the sun and moon being darkened and signs of his return, this is probably why Mt adds that as a third question.

    The three events, A.E., the temple destruction/desolation of the Jewish people/long trib, and the events surrounding Jesus’ return are no doubt interrelated in scripture.

    I definitely want to dig into this more on my own.

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  14. ICA
    02/01/2012 at 11:05 AM

    Willard, “I wonder if these [two] women … represent the Sunnis and the Shiites – the two women with wings like a stork and the woman in the basket – the stork was known as an unclean bird.”

    We can’t be certain (and I’ll touch on that in a moment). But first, what we can ascertain from the text is that the woman inside the basket is wickedness, is now set up in the land of “Babylon”, is representative of the “Whore of Babylon” in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and is destined for utter destruction:

    Revelation 14:8, “And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

    Revelation 18:21, “And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.”

    To your question specifically, even the eagle was considered an unclean bird, yet “they that wait upon the LORD shall renew [their] strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles” (Isaiah 40:31), so I wouldn’t say that we can determine with certainty that the women with wings like a stork are unclean simply because a stork was unclean. Having said that, however, I believe that it could be a possibility. When “Babylon” falls she becomes “the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird” (Rev 18:2).

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  15. 02/01/2012 at 1:56 PM

    What did the stork represent in Zech’s time? Are there other references to storks in scripture, besides their definition as unclean in the Law? Someone can research that, or I’ll look into it at lunch.

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  16. ICA
    02/01/2012 at 3:14 PM

    Kurt J. :

    What did the stork represent in Zech’s time? Are there other references to storks in scripture, besides their definition as unclean in the Law? Someone can research that, or I’ll look into it at lunch.

    Don’t know. Not much is said about storks in Scripture. The only other verse that stands out is Jeremiah 8:7: “Even the stork in the heavens Knows her appointed times… But My people do not know the judgment of the LORD.”

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  17. Anonymous
    02/01/2012 at 3:35 PM

    I have often thought that the toes partly of iron and partly of clay could be a description of the ten nations consisting of Sunni and Shia. The northern kingdom, made up of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, are all mostly Shia or ruled by Shia governments. Gen. 4:22 states that Tubal-Cain was a craftsman in bronze and iron. His descendant, Nimrod, as we all know, established the city of Babel.

    The southern kingdom consisting of Egypt, Libya, Sudan, etc. are desert kingdoms, hence the clay. These are Sunni.

    The wild card here is Turkey, which is in the northern kingdom, but is Sunni. As I did a little research, I came across a couple of very interesting articles. Here is one:

    http://www.todayszaman.com/news-270177-turkey-to-bring-iraqi-shiite-sunni-groups-together-in-istanbul.html

    And a video of Erdogan of Turkey appealing to Sunnis and Shias to come together:

    http://muharram.shiatv.net/view_video.php?viewkey=7bd8487ff800ff1829df

    Saudi Arabia sticks out like a big, sore thumb, not really belonging to either the north or the south. We all know the Shias, especially Iran, would love to burn her to the ground. Now with the strict Islamists taking over in the south, could we see a (temporary) alliance of North and South against SA, with Turkey as the leader?

    Just mulling.

    AtHisFeet

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  18. 02/01/2012 at 4:06 PM

    Regarding Zech 5’s two women with wings like storks–I don’t think its the wings that need to be focused on, but the two women. Willard suggests Sunna and Shia, but I plugged “two women” into Bible Gateway and came up with Eze 23:1. The whole chapter discusses two harlot women Oholah and Oholibah, the identity of which is Samaria and Jerusalem, who first played the harlot in Egypt. Ohalah (Samaria) dies first at the hands of her lover Assyria; Oholibah (Jer) sees this but doesn’t change her ways – and sleeps with her lover Babylon.

    The result? God’s judgment: 22 “Therefore, O Oholibah, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Behold I will arouse your lovers against you, from whom you were alienated, and I will bring them against you from every side: 23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them; desirable young men, governors and officials all of them, officers and men of renown, all of them riding on horses. 24 They will come against you with weapons, chariots and wagons, and with a company of peoples. They will set themselves against you on every side with buckler and shield and helmet; and I will commit the judgment to them, and they will judge you according to their customs. 25 I will set My jealousy against you, that they may deal with you in wrath. They will remove your nose and your ears; and your survivors will fall by the sword. They will take your sons and your daughters; and your survivors will be consumed by the fire. 26 They will also strip you of your clothes and take away your beautiful jewels. 27 Thus I will make your lewdness and your harlotry brought from the land of Egypt to cease from you, so that you will not lift up your eyes to them or remember Egypt anymore.’ 28 For thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Behold, I will give you into the hand of those whom you hate, into the hand of those from whom you were alienated. 29 They will deal with you in hatred, take all your property, and leave you naked and bare. And the nakedness of your harlotries will be uncovered, both your lewdness and your harlotries. 30 These things will be done to you because you have played the harlot with the nations, because you have defiled yourself with their idols.

    Perhaps the two women are Israel and Judah, who through their harlotry have assisted and enabled putting the Babylonian Harlot in her place of prominence?

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  19. Willard
    02/01/2012 at 4:13 PM

    Maybe stretching this but I like the verses below they seem to have something in common with the Muslim and Arab nature especially v 16 and 17 and as a back ground to Gen 16:12

    Job 39:13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully, but they cannot compare with the pinions and feathers of the stork.
    Job 39:14 She lays her eggs on the ground and lets them warm in the sand,
    Job 39:15 unmindful that a foot may crush them, that some wild animal may trample them.
    Job 39:16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers; she cares not that her labor was in vain,
    Job 39:17 for God did not endow her with wisdom or give her a share of good sense.
    Job 39:18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run, she laughs at horse and rider

    My thoughts were that the woman in the basket covered with a lead lid could be Islam itself planted in the desert (Mecca) and the two women with stork wings could the Sunni – Shias – but these are just mullings like AHF said

    I think as you suggest and Kurt agrees that the word for curse (Alah) may be telling us an awful lot here – it certainly sheds light on this chapter of Zech

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  20. ICA
    02/01/2012 at 5:14 PM

    AHF, “Saudi Arabia sticks out like a big, sore thumb, not really belonging to either the north or the south. We all know the Shias, especially Iran, would love to burn her to the ground. Now with the strict Islamists taking over in the south, could we see a (temporary) alliance of North and South against SA, with Turkey as the leader?”

    We still need to watch closely to see exactly how the prophecies coalesce. As for Saudi Arabia, I’m under the belief that the kingdom will be attacked by Iran and Iranian allies, and be destroyed. Good links btw. Here are a few other links to go along with the two you shared:

    * Arab Spring Begins Weeding Out Christians as Sunni and Shia Ideologies Lock Horns Over Control of New Islamic Kingdom
    * Turkey Warns Against Shi’ite-Sunni Cold War
    * Turkey Acts as Mentor for Emerging Islamists in Middle Eastern Region

    Kurt, “Perhaps the two women are Israel and Judah, who through their harlotry have assisted and enabled putting the Babylonian Harlot in her place of prominence?”

    Could be Kurt. Numbers 33:55, “But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be irritants in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell.”

    In light of current events of these Last Days, perhaps Daniel 9:11 provides another clue for us: “Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse [alah] is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.”

    Willard, “Maybe stretching this but I like the verses below they seem to have something in common with the Muslim and Arab nature especially v 16 and 17 and as a back ground to Gen 16:12”

    Seems to me that Job 39:16-17 is referring to the ostrich, not the stork. A stork will protect its young to the point of death.

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  21. Willard
    02/01/2012 at 6:02 PM

    You may be right I seen them on an ostrich farm I know of and there is nothing dumber than an ostrich – stork ends v13 so I thought that maybe v14 picked up from that ???

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  22. 02/02/2012 at 1:28 AM

    Stork in Hebrew = חסידה chaciydah

    It occurs 6 times and means stork 5 times and feathers once:

    Lev 11:19 And the stork2624, the heron 601 after her kind 4327, and the lapwing 1744, and the bat 5847.

    Deu 14:18 And the stork2624, and the heron 601 after her kind 4327, and the lapwing 1744, and the bat 5847.

    Job 39:13 [Gavest thou] the goodly 7443 wings 3671 unto the peacocks 5965 ? or wings 84 and feathers2624 unto the ostrich 5133?

    Psa 104:17 Where the birds 6833 make their nests 7077 : [as for] the stork2624, the fir trees 1265 [are] her house 1004.

    Jer 8:7 Yea, the stork2624 in the heaven 8064 knoweth 3045 her appointed times 4150; and the turtle 8449 and the crane 5483 and the swallow 5693 observe 8104 the time 6256 of their coming 935 ; but my people 5971 know 3045 not the judgment 4941 of the LORD 3068.

    Zec 5:9 Then lifted I up 5375 mine eyes 5869, and looked 7200 , and, behold, there came out 3318 two 8147 women 802, and the wind 7307 [was] in their wings 3671; for they had 2007 wings 3671 like the wings 3671 of a stork2624: and they lifted up 5375 the ephah 374 between the earth 776 and the heaven 8064.

    Unfortunately I think you picked the one reference that referred to feathers.

    Sorry I didn’t remove the Strong’s ref #s. That was from Blue Letter Bible.

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  23. 02/02/2012 at 2:17 AM

    Here’s more on the Hebrew word “alah”, which means “curse” – I compared the Hebrew letters of the words “alah” and the Arabic letters of “Allah”; they are exactly the same, except for some diacritic/pronunciation marks above the main letters, and an extra “L”, as follows:

    אלה , alah (“curse” in Hebrew) and الله‎ , Allah (“God” in Arabic), where:

    א = aleph (Heb) is equivalent to ا = alif (Arab), or “A” in English
    ל = lamed (Heb) is equivalent to ل = lam (Arab), or “L” in English; “Allah” has two “L”s in Arabic
    ה = heh (Heb) is equivalent to ه = ha (Arab), or “H” in English

    Quite amazing – the Hebrew word “curse” and the Arabic word “Allah” don’t just sound the same, with the exception of an extra “L”, THEY ARE THE SAME.

    There is an idea called “the law of first occurrence” (probably more like a principle) whereby if one locates the first occurrence of a word in scripture it can provide guidance as to how the word or concept is defined in the rest of God’s word… its instructive, for instance, to learn how the first ‘tree’ or ‘serpent’ is developed, and allow this to influence our understanding of how trees or serpents are used subsequently throughout scripture.

    If one looks at the use of the word ‘curse’ (אלה , alah), it first appears in Numbers 5 for ‘the adultery test’, the Mosaic methodology for determining the faithfulness of a wife to her husband. If the man suspects adultery, the wife is made by the priest to drink bitter water. If she is innocent, she will be immune, but if guilty, the “water that brings a curse shall go into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh waste away.” Num 5:21 The actual first occurrence in v19 reads: “If no man has lain with you and if you have not gone astray into uncleanness, being under the authority of your husband, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings a curse“. I think its instructive to see that first use of the word “alah” in scripture is in connection with an unfaithful woman – is this not perhaps a foreshadowing of the Revelation harlot riding the Beast?

    There is an older form of the word ‘curse’ in Hebrew (arar); it is first used in the garden in Genesis 3, verses 14 and 15:

    The LORD God said to the serpent,

    “Because you have done this,
    Cursed are you more than all cattle,
    And more than every beast of the field;
    On your belly you will go,
    And dust you will eat
    All the days of your life;
    15 And I will put enmity
    Between you and the woman,
    And between your seed and her seed;
    He shall bruise you on the head,
    And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

    The very first use of ‘curse’ is of Satan; a stretch, but if Allah means ‘curse’ in Hebrew, perhaps it can be extended to the older form of the word as well. Note too that “the woman” is again caught up in the mess.

    Like

  24. ICA
    02/02/2012 at 10:25 AM

    Kurt, “Quite amazing – the Hebrew word ‘curse’ and the Arabic word ‘Allah’ don’t just sound the same, with the exception of an extra ‘L’, THEY ARE THE SAME.”

    Yes, amazing indeed. When I first learned about the word “alah” and how its pronunciation is identical to the god of Islam, I was reminded of Isaiah 46:10, “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.” The richness of the the Word of God never ceases to amaze.

    Kurt, “I think its instructive to see that first use of the word ‘alah’ in scripture is in connection with an unfaithful woman – is this not perhaps a foreshadowing of the Revelation harlot riding the Beast?”

    I would say yes, there is no doubt. This is a reoccurring theme regarding the “Whore of Babylon”:

    Revelation 14:8, “A second angel followed and said, ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

    Revelation 17:2, “With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

    Revelation 17:4, “The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.”

    Revelation 18:3, “For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

    Revelation 19:2, “for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

    This is spiritual adultery/fornication. Daniel 11:37-38 reveals that a Last Days ‘Antichrist’ will not regard “the God of his fathers” but instead “he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things.” Many Arabs and Muslims are descendants of Ishmael, whose father was Abraham. To not regard “the God of his fathers” suggests to me that this Last Days ‘Antichrist’ will not regard YHWH the true God of Abraham (and Ishmael, whom God took care of after he and Hagar were sent away), but will instead honor a god whom they never knew, one that is forced upon the inhabitants of all nations surrounding Israel in the eschaton, and in increasing measure upon the world, whom they refer to as ‘Allah’. And the West bends over backwards to accommodate and embrace her …

    Like

  25. Willard
    02/02/2012 at 3:08 PM

    Very interesting this would seem to be a pretty major understanding – as Daniel said things would be sealed until the end days – It seems that more and more almost weekly prophecy is being revealed.

    Like

  26. Anonymous
    02/03/2012 at 1:57 PM

    Kurt – your citation from Numbers 5 made me think of Walid’s proposition in his book that the third trumpet judgment may not be a literal asteroid, but in fact may represent the “curse” of Islam poisoning the “waters” (i.e. people, as waters or seas often symbolize in prophetic scripture). Notice in Rev.8:11 that the asteroid makes the “waters” bitter. Remember also that Muslims worship the black stone at the Kaaba, which many believe to be an asteroid.

    AHF

    Like

  27. ICA
    02/03/2012 at 2:25 PM

    Also see Jeremiah 23.

    Like

  28. Anonymous
    02/04/2012 at 1:36 PM

    …and Proverbs 5:3-4. wow.

    Like

  29. debrabasham
    08/04/2012 at 6:01 AM

    All you guys are really applying the word of God here….thanks soooo much. I’ve learned and been fed. :-)

    Like

  30. 08/06/2012 at 3:21 PM

    Hello, I am wondering the significance of the new Sunni/Shiite alliance in regards to Bible prophecy. I think I read somewhere about the two sects joining?
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/saudi-king-invites-ahmadinejad-to-extraordinary-islamic-solidarity-meeting-in-mecca/

    I am here because in the last months I have come to respect this site and the views of ICA and fellow members. I made this account so that I could speak with like minded individuals, to learn, so that I may explain it to others who may not know.

    Sorry for the wall of text.

    Like

  31. ICA
    08/06/2012 at 5:34 PM

    otcaaron, “Hello, I am wondering the significance of the new Sunni/Shiite alliance in regards to Bible prophecy. I think I read somewhere about the two sects joining?”

    Hi otcaaron, thank you for visiting. There are leaders in the Islamic world who are openly calling for unification as we speak, especially to join forces militarily. We’ve even been witnessing the perfect storm brewing in the Middle East that could precipitate exactly that:

    * Sunni Al Qaeda’s Big Fat Shiite Iranian Wedding (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2Wo)
    * Shiite Iran Takes Aim at Israel Through Sunni Muslim Brotherhood Alliance (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2KC)
    * Iran: Ayatollah Khamenei Calls for World’s Muslim Nations to Form an International Islamic Power Bloc (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2ax)
    * Muslim Brotherhood Calls for a ‘United Arab States’ with Jerusalem as its Capital (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2tn)
    * Turkey Warns Against Shi’ite-Sunni Cold War, Encourages Close Contact With All Sides (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2xE)

    The reason why Sunni and Shia would work together is simple. No matter what branch of Islam one is from, they both agree that Israel must be destroyed. Even Richard Engel, a correspondent working for a secular news organization, understood what was beginning to take shape from the outset of the Arab Spring. See the video below.

    Having said that, even though a significant number of adherents to both branches will unite, the fact remains that the Islamic kingdom will still be fractured. The Muslim world is very large, and not every single Muslim nation or Islamist organization will fall in line with a Sunni-Shia coalition. The Islamic world will still remain inherently divided as it has been for 1400 years, and this division may likely be one of the contributing factors that causes the Islamic armies of Magog (Armageddon) that do unite to eventually turn on each other and attack one another. Something will happen that will trigger a huge crack in their coalition, one where “every man’s sword shall be against his brother”, for in that day “a great panic from the LORD will be among them. Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor, And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand” (Eze 38:21-22; Zech 14:12-13).

    Like

  32. Irv
    04/15/2013 at 11:45 PM

    Pretrib Rapture Pride

    Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
    Ice’s mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn’t find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 – and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers “the early pretribulationists” (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including “Pseudo-Ephraem” and a “Rev. Morgan Edwards,” taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist’s arrival as the only “imminent” event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an “imminent” pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards’ historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” and journalist/historian Dave MacPherson’s “Deceiving and Being Deceived” for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
    The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read “pretrib” into phrases like “before Armageddon,” “before the final conflagration,” and “escape all these things”!
    BTW, the KJV translators’ other writings found in London’s famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don’t have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib “proof” in the KJV that its translators never found?
    Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up “Famous Rapture Watchers” (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
    Pretrib didn’t flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby “explanatory notes” in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield’s criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book “The Praise of Folly” which is available online.
    Biola University’s doctrinal statement says Christ’s return is “premillennial” and “before the Tribulation.” Although universities stand for “academic freedom,” Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases – non-essentials the founders purposely didn’t include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
    Ice, BTW, has a “Ph.D” issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn’t authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he’s working on another “Ph.D” via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice’s scholarliness, Google “Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “be careful in polemics – Peripatetic Learning,” and “Walvoord Melts Ice.” Also Google “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)” – featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 “End Times Passover” blog.
    Other fascinating Google articles include “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “X-raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism” – most from the author of “The Rapture Plot,” the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history.
    Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
    (Postscript: For another jolt or two Google “The Background Obama Can’t Cover Up.”)

    / The foregoing was observed on the ever amazing web. /

    Like

  1. 03/06/2012 at 11:01 AM

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