Home > Radical Islam, Theology and Eschatology > The People of the Prince to Come: A Roman-European Antichrist?

The People of the Prince to Come: A Roman-European Antichrist?


Daniel 9:26, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

70ADMany have traditionally believed that since the army that destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD was considered Roman then this, therefore, must mean that according to Daniel 9:26 the Antichrist would rise out of Europe.  The majority of popular Biblical eschatology teachers today, even in light of events happening on the global stage, still teach an Antichrist who comes out of Europe, a charismatic leader that rises from within the European Union to then lead a One World Government.  Writers have published novels such as the “Left Behind” series promoting it, even Christian movies have been inspired and produced by this very idea.  However, although the people of the prince to come mentioned in Daniel 9:26 may have been considered “Roman” soldiers merely because they were (supposedly) under the command of Rome, many of these same teachers have either ignored or were just not aware of the following very significant fact.

The People…

By the time Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD, the Legions responsible for the destruction were dominated by eastern peoples from Syria, Egypt, Asia Minor (Turkey) and that general area.  This is confirmed by Tacitus, Josephus and numerous scholars and historians.  Thus, although the Legions responsible for the destruction of the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD were by that time considered Roman citizens, they were not European people.  (The Wars of The Jews, History of the Destruction of Jerusalem By Flavius Josephus, Trans. William Whiston BOOK V: Chapter 13; and Soldiers, Cities, and Civilians in Roman Syria by Nigel Pollard, Ph.D, p. 115).

Prior to the turn of the 1st Century the majority of the men who served in the Roman armies were Italians.  That is true.  But as the Roman Empire grew it became virtually impossible for it to be manned with only Italian soldiers, so Emperor Augustus was forced to change the ethnic demographic of men who made up the Roman armies, and after the reforms were completed early in the 1st Century just a small part of the Roman army consisted of only Italian men — the Praetorian Guard [1, 2].  The rest of the army was expanding to be increasingly made up of citizens who were from the outer provinces far away from Rome.

Some may say, however, that since Rome gave the order to destroy the city and the sanctuary then Rome is therefore responsible, but this is not the case at all.  Josephus records that Caesar did not want the temple destroyed, writing:

“And now a certain person came running to Titus, and told him of this fire … whereupon he rose up in great haste, and, as he was, ran to the holy house, in order to have a stop put to the fire; after him followed all his commanders, and after them followed the several legions, in great astonishment; so there was a great clamor and tumult raised, as was natural upon the disorderly motion of so great an army. Then did Caesar, both by calling to the soldiers that were fighting, with a loud voice, and by giving a signal to them with his right hand, order them to quench the fire. (Josephus War of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 4).

The soldiers were hell bent on destroying the sanctuary, despite Caesar’s orders to put out the fire.  But they hated the Jews.  And as Josephus later writes, “And thus was the holy house burnt down, without Caesar’s approbation.

History bears witness to the very fact that the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary were almost exclusively Arab/Egyptian/Syrian/Asia Minorian, etc. and from that general area. From Tacitus in The History New Ed edition Book 5.1 Editor: Moses Hadas (Translated by Alfred Church and William Brodribb; Modern Library, 2003 NY):

“Titus Caesar … found in Judaea three legions, the 5th, the 10th, and the 15th .. To these he added the 12th from Syria, and some men belonging to the 18th and 3rd, whom he had withdrawn from Alexandria. This force was accompanied … by a strong contingent of Arabs, who hated the Jews with the usual hatred of neighbors …”

From Josephus in The Complete Works of Josephus, The Wars Of The Jews Or The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem(Book III, Chapter 1):

“So Vespasian sent his son Titus [who], came by land into Syria, where he gathered together the Roman forces, with a considerable number of auxiliaries from the kings in that neighborhood.

In the next chapter Josephus writes:

“Malchus also, the king of Arabia, sent a thousand horsemen, besides five thousand footmen, the greatest part of which were archers; so that the whole army, including the auxiliaries sent by the kings, as well horsemen and footmen, when all were united together, amounted to sixty thousand.

Virtually all Roman scholars concur that the overwhelming majority of soldiers would have been Eastern provincial conscripts by the time Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD.

Additionally, Clarence Larkin in “Dispensational Truth Or God’s Plan and Purpose in the Ages“, which many Western AC proponents consider to be one of the best dispensational authors of all time, disagreed with the now popular Roman theory and through Scripture recognized in his own way why Antichrist cannot come from Europe, writing:

“The ‘King of the North’ was the King of Syria, and his character and conduct is described (Dan. 11:36-39) as similar to that of the ‘Little Horn’ that came out of one of the ‘Four Horns’ it is clear that the Antichrist is to come from Syria… The term ‘North’ and ‘South’ are applied to Syria and Egypt because of their geographic relation to Palestine (the Pleasant of Glorious land. Dan. 8:9, 11:16, 41). In the thought of Jehovah, Jerusalem is at once the geographic and moral centre of the earth. We are to understand therefore by the ‘King of the North’ the King of Syria, which also included Assyria. This fixes the locality from which the Antichrist shall come…” (p. 118)

Since Scripture calls Antichrist “the Assyrian” numerous times throughout the Old Testament, which would hardly be accurate if he were to come from Rome (Zechariah 10:10-12, Isaiah 30:30-31, Micah 5:2-6, Isaiah 10:12-13 cf Daniel 7:20, Isaiah 14:24-25), Clarence Larkin would in all likelihood be among those to conclude that the Antichrist would arise out of Islam if he were alive today.

… Of The Prince That Shall Come

With Daniel 9:26 we have a specific reference to the prince that shall come after Messiah is “cut off”, a prince whose people are not only associated with the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, but who are also associated with wars and desolations ‘unto the end’.  For the sake of argument let’s consider that Daniel is also referring here to an eschatonic leader and people that many consider to be the End-of-Days Antichrist and his kingdom (who would seek to destroy the foundations of the spiritual city and the spiritual temple in the Last Days) since the teachers I am arguing against use this very verse to support the idea of a European Antichrist.   With this in mind, let’s ask ourselves the following question:  If the Antichrist is European, why was Daniel not inspired by the Holy Spirit to say “the country/region (erets – H776) of the prince to come”, but was instead moved by the Spirit to use the word “am” (H5971) which means “people” or “nation“?   Does it not stand to reason that this is because the prince and the people who would destroy the city and the sanctuary — and therefore by extension the Last Days Antichrist and his people — are not necessarily identified geographically with Europe, but are instead identified primarily through ethnicity?  I say yes indeed, and it matters not if they were considered Roman soldiers (even the Apostle Paul called himself Roman, yet he was ethnically a Jew) because there is nothing in the verse to identify the prince to come with Europe geographically.

In closing, the overwhelming evidence that we are now beginning to watch unfold before our very eyes in these Last Days, underscored by authors and teachers such as Joel Richardson, Walid Shoebat and now other like-minded thinkers who have begun to re-examine this question such as Chuck MisslerDr. John MacArthurRay Gano and others, is that the Antichrist of these Last Days will not be coming out of Rome or Europe.  For many, the blinders of tradition and pop-theology has locked them into a state of eschatological tunnel-vision while a prowling Beast creeps beside them, rising out of the Middle East and ready to devour.  But a close examination of Daniel 9:26 along with a brief lesson in history and an even cursory look at current events leaves little doubt about it — Antichrist and the spirit of Antichrist is rising out of the Middle East, and from within radical Islam. Christian author Joseph Chambers concurs, and sums it up nicely by saying:

“There is no other geographical area on planet Earth where the Antichrist could appear but the Middle East. Those who continue to look only toward the European Common Market as the primary movement toward the Antichrist will soon be disappointed… To look for Satan’s final activities in any other area than the Middle East is to look in vain and in error…. The Islam or Moslem religion provides an excellent covering for the rise of the Antichrist.” (A Palace for the Antichrist, News Leaf Press, 1996, pages 136-142).

Credit:  For more information please be sure to read Joel Richardson’s excellent article titled “Daniel 9:26: Who Are The People of the Prince To Come?” here.

  1. William L. Irwin
    06/16/2011 at 11:52 AM

    The little horn that comes up is the State of Vatican City. The three nations subdued are 1. Italy under Mussolini, 2. Germany under Hitler and 3. Spain under Franco. The wound was World War 2. The beast with two horns is the POPE. The two horns are 1. The Holy See and 2. The State of Vatican City. Each is a completely separate and sovereign entity and each has a Head of State. Number 1. is a kingdom and number 2. is a country. The Pope is the Head of State of BOTH, thus the two horns. The IMAGE (eikon with pneuma) is the entire E.U. The causal relationship between the beast with two horns and the people concerning the creation of the image is the belief system. This is clearly seen with the E.U. Queen of Heaven Flag taken from Rev.12 :1 adopted by the Council of Europe on Dec. 8, 1955 which is the “IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF MARY” “Queen of Heaven” according to the beast with two horns,the POPE. It is clearly seen again with the BIRTH of the image of Rev.13. The E.U. was BORN IN ROME on March 25,1957 with the signing of the TREATY of ROME. March 25 is the ANNUNCIATION of the BIRTH of the LORD according to the beast with two horns,the POPE. It is the ANNUNCIATION of the BIRTH of the IMAGE with LIFE the EUROPEAN UNION. BORN in ROME home of the BEAST with TWO HORNS the POPE and the BABYLON WHORE. The POPE is the FATHER and the GREAT WHORE is the MOTHER. The beast with seven heads ten horns and ten crowns,the beast with two horns and the IMAGE that speaks all exist simultaneously. The IMAGE (eikon with pneuma) speaks from the TOWER OF BABEL which is the lawful seat of the E.U. Parliament located in Strasbourg, France. The beast with two horns is the FATHER, the BABYLON WHORE is the MOTHER and the EUROPEAN UNION speaks rather appropriately from the TOWER OF BABEL. SATAN has people waiting for things that have already happened and looking for things they will never see. The people are DUPED and DELUDED. WAKE UP, you’ve been had! TRUTHFULLY YOURS WILLIAM Le ROY IRWIN


  2. Eddy
    06/22/2011 at 11:35 AM

    Interesting perspective on dan 9:27, makes a lot of sense especially with what is happening in the world today.


    • 04/06/2015 at 10:37 AM

      Today, Bright Monday, April 6, 2015 A.D., is the 937th day in the 1,290 and 1,335 day periods of Daniel 12:11 & 12, respectively.

      Of May 8, 2016 A.D., it was foretold more than 2,500 years ago, and written :

      “Blessed is he who waits and comes unto 1,335 days.”

      Great and Holy Friday, March 25, 2016 A.D., begins the final 45 days of the 1,335 day period.

      This is the judgment of fire foretold in :

      2 Peter 3:10-14 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

      10 But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up.

      11 Seeing then that all these things are to be dissolved, what manner of people ought you to be in holy conversation and godliness?

      12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of the Lord, by which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with the burning heat?

      13 But we look for new heavens and a new earth according to his promises, in which justice dwelleth.

      14 Wherefore, dearly beloved, waiting for these things, be diligent that you may be found before him unspotted and blameless in peace.


  3. Christopher70
    06/24/2011 at 11:12 PM

    I use to think the AC would come out of Roman Catholicism and Europe. Now that idea seems ridiculous when compared to Islam and the Mideast. I think eyes are being opened now today as God is unsealing the Word for His children.


  4. 06/25/2011 at 12:58 PM


    There are many questions I could ask you but I will just ask your opinion on the following three and how you think they fit with your RCC ideas – How does the RCC fit in and be called the Assyrian from Assyria and secondly who or which religeous group is now and has always historically beheaded its enemies – the EU is a totally bankrupt organization and the RCC is totally bankrupt faith –

    Also thirdly the ten nations surrounding Israel each an ancient enemy of Israel that we see everyday on the news that are in tumoil today why do they not qualify as the ten horns?? , Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkey, All these nation are mentioned in the Gog / Magog war in Ezek 38

    MICHA – When the Assyrian invades our land and marches through our fortresses, we will raise against him seven shepherds, even eight leaders of men. Mic 5:6 They will rule the land of Assyria with the sword, the land of Nimrod with drawn sword. He will deliver us from the Assyrian when he invades our land and marches into our borders.

    Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years


  5. William L. Irwin
    07/01/2011 at 10:43 AM

    Islam is antichrist and there is no doubt about it. Is Jesus Christ GOD? According to Islam, NO he is not. This is a NO BRAINER, Islam denies the deity of the LORD JESUS CHRIST and in so doing is declaring itself antichrist. The believers are warned however to expect a deception so cunning, so deceitful, a STRONG DELUSION, that if it were possible even the very elect could be deceived. Islam does not meet that criteria.This strong delusion is manifested with the presentation of an alien gospel, a DIFFERENT JESUS along with a retention of dates and beliefs from previous religions. The reference to the ASSYRIAN is in my opinion a nickname. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that when Peter mentioned the church in BABYLON it was a reference to ROME. However what we do have with what I call WHORE CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM is a DEVICE that was FORECAST by SATAN. This DEVICE is a SPIRITUAL WEAPON, a TOOL used by SATAN for CENTURIES to manipulate the minds of men and women. This two pronged polarizing device has been and is currently being used by SATAN to gather up the nations to do battle against GOD. ISRAEL has been the target of the two pronged spiritual attack for centuries.The common denominator between ISLAM and WHORE CHRISTIANITY is the fact that they each want Israel to give up land. Islam wants the Jews dead and in Roman Catholic Europe the Jews were hunted down and murdered by the train loads. The fact of the matter is EUROPA, E.U. FLAG (Rev.12:1) is wearing the Crown of Israel and wants Israel to give up the Land that the Lord is restoring to Israel in a fulfillment of last days prophecy. The two state solution is the position of the POPE(beast with two horns) who claims to be Jesus’ representative on Earth. It is the position of the IMAGE of Rev. 13 which is the EUROPEAN UNION. It is also the position of the U.S., the U.N. and Russia. The people that are in favor of the two state solution are OPPOSED TO GOD and they will soon find out just what that will mean to them. Satan has been using whore christianity and islam for centuries for murderous crusades, inquisitions, jihads, wars, brain washing, elimination of those that won’t go along to get along. All those things and more but especially to wage war against the LORD and ISRAEL. Estimates are that since 1950 approximately 6,000 ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS have RAPED up to 250,000 U.S. CHILDREN. That is just in America since 1950. In fact, Josef Ratzinger got out of testimony in a sex scandal case by way of DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY because he was made POPE after he was given papers to testify. Islam calls America the GREAT SATAN. They want us dead, need I remind everyone of 911 and Osama Bin Laden and the current Islamic Maniac in Persia (Iran). The TWO PRONGED DEVICE the SPIRITUAL WEAPON that has been used for centuries against GOD and ISRAEL in the Middle East and Europe as well as other parts of the planet has and is obviously being used in and against the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA by SATAN. The raping murdering satanic sickos of WHORE CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM have been having a party in America. Islam and Christianity worship the true god is one of the BIGGEST LIES EVER TOLD. It is merely a synthesis of the polarizing two pronged weapon that was designed by SATAN and FORECAST by him a long time ago. It is my belief that due to the overwhelming evidence taken in total that the beast with two horns of Rev.13 is the POPE and the IMAGE of Rev.13 is the entire EUROPEAN UNION. I have been investigating this area for some time now. I have left much writing on the internet. You could pretty much call me nobody from nowhere and this is not about money or fame. Just Google these words,( William L. Irwin pope beast two horns holy see state vatican city image e.u.) I have made remarks in the comments section of a number of websites.Information not present here is on those pages. I will stand by everything I have said. TRUTHFULLY YOURS, WILLIAM Le ROY IRWIN


  6. 07/01/2011 at 11:49 AM

    Mr. Irwin,

    I only have one thing to say–try using paragraphs!!

    Other than that, bravo! I agree with much of what you wrote. Surely whore Christianity must be found in Revelation, since it written to, and a warning to, the church/ekklesia. Islam must be found there too (5th & 6th Trumpets, at a minimum).

    Thank you for posting here, please continue to comment here, because I would appreciate your perspective on some of the discussions. I am a wavering historicist/Islamic end times paradigm person.

    Kurt J.


  7. 07/01/2011 at 6:13 PM

    The Assyrian is not a nick name no more than Babylon, Persia and Greece are or Egypt. – the Assyrian has been Israels enemy since the first day that there was an Assyria – In referance to Rev 12:1 Ishmael also had 12 sons Gen 25:16 and the moon is assoceated with Islam much more then the RCC – true the sex scandels in the RCC where terriable but they in no way have or had anything to do with the nation Israel and the end of the days –

    It is also true that Europa has been anti semantic over almost all of its history but again they are anti Jewish and anti Israel – but they have never went to war against Israel – much of their anti semistism is based on the oil factor – politics and the need for a political scapecoat like Hitler used or the British to find favortism with the oil barons of the ME or the catholic Spanish in 1492 etc etc.

    Rome was refered to as Babylon because of it corrupt religion because it was just like Babylon and in its day a form of the anti Christ in that it killed and murdered Christians.

    REgards your comments on Rev 13 my opinion is that you have taken this completly out of context – there is absalutly nothing in Rev 13 that points to the RCC. When you consider the book of Daniel 7 and 8 along side of this it becomes very clear that the picture of the Beast coming out of the sea is the same one as both in Dan and Rev. The seven head are the ME empire up until this day – Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Greco Rome, Islam in the form of it religeous, political, and military organization or stance. The ten crowns are POSSIBLY time will tell in the turmoil that is happening in the ME as we speak – Egypt, Libya, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Jordan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Turkey which is also as we speak threatening to invade Syria and over throw Assad.

    And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. Rev 13:2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. Rev 13:3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast

    Why does the Beast resemble a LEOPARD, have feet like a BEAR and and mouth like a LION because it is the nations that are today in these same lands of ancient Greece of the Leopard, Persia the Bear and Babylon the Lion – John is looking back into history that is why he has the empires in reverse – these empires were all once Israels enimies and these same lands are still Israels enemies to this very day – day in and day out

    The head wound is in my opinion still a wait and see but one day it to will become clear – it maybe an actual head wound or it may be a form of the old ottoman empire revived meaning a new or future Calphite ruled by the AC

    Europe if it does play a part will be because it will be over run by the Muslims within it – Europe is afraid of its own Islamic / Muslim citizens within it – My one thought regards the RCC is that it may play a part as the False Prophet as the RCC pretty much is that already today a False Prophet because of its sex scandles, banking scandles trying to find common ground with Islam and Hinduism etc teaching evelution the making of saints etc etc. Any way that is my opinion and like you say I also have studied this for many years and when the bible is read literally this is what it tells us – but I also confess that I by no means claim to have all of the answers –


  8. 07/02/2011 at 1:24 AM

    I feel really alone sometimes–I don’t think ANYONE I’ve read, listened to, or corresponded with, save SDAs, gets the concept that the Roman Catholic Beast interpretation of Daniel and Rev. is a PAST fulfillment–in historicism we are NOT WAITING FOR a FUTURE, beastly, Roman Catholic-Euro Union to arise and go to war against Israel.

    Yes, many millions believe in a “Left Behind” concept. I do not. That is a DIFFERENT interpretation of Revelation that sees all, or nearly all, of Revelation as FUTURE (except the 7 Churches), the WHOLE world under one gov’t that goes to war on Israel.

    Someone please acknowledge that, whether you agree or not (I know you don’t), that there is a THIRD paradigm (at least) –Historicism. Namely, the beast AROSE within the church, was dominant 1260 years, died, and came back to life. Its head, the pope, was literally taken captive and died. The Historicists (me, for now) DO NOT BELIEVE that the RCC is in the future going to unite with Europe, have some kind of super-bad pope who will lead the EU in a war on Israel.

    2nd concept: Ask yourself, who are the saints? Who is the woman? For that matter, who is ISRAEL? Is it physical, national Israel? Is the woman of Revelation 12 that gave birth to the male child (Jesus), national Israel? NO….it is spiritual Israel, the “Israel of God” (Gal 6:16). The ONE PEOPLE of God is not national Israel nor the organized church, but a subset of both, the chosen, the bride, the elect, the remnant….THIS is the entity Satan persecutes.

    Now of course he hates Jews too, because they were entrusted with the oracles of God and were his chosen instrument to bring his truth to the world. Yes there will be a final battle and attack on Israel that Yeshua will defeat.

    Please try to understand, even if you don’t agree, that some people (me, for now) can hold two things in their minds: that an antichrist/beast arose within the church/ekklesia, which is exactly what happened with the RCC, and that there is a final end times battle with the “beast” of Islam. Remember, the beast is ultimately Satan and his systems, in whatever form (remember 7 heads and 10 horns on a SINGLE beast?).

    This thing has been around, at least in scripture 2-1/2 thousand years. It is not ONLY Islam (the 5th and 6th Trumpets), nor is it ONLY the RCC. Islam won’t only be terrible for 3-1/2 literal years; it has been for over a thousand. The tribulation won’t last ONLY 3 -1/2 or 7 years, its been going on in earnest since 70 AD. These are all SYMBOLS, representative of reality, communicating the essence thereof. Good luck finding LITERAL interpretations.

    And for gosh sakes, you people (you know who you are), use PARAGRAPHS!! (Yes, its my pet peeve…everybody should have one).

    G’night, y’all.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. 07/02/2011 at 1:35 AM

    OK, now I have to confess, I only read Irwin’s SECOND, longer post, which makes much more sense than his first, which I’ve now just read. I don’t agree with him on most of his specific interpretations, but they serve as a warning, I suppose, of what we all could be guilty of to some degree: being too sure of our imaginative interpretations. In fact I couldn’t find a SINGLE individual interpretation, in the first post, that I agreed with.

    You have to be careful about being too dogmatic about history fulfilling this or that bible prophecy, unless it is confirmed elsewhere in scripture or is otherwise a slam dunk. Most of Mr. Irwin’s particulars don’t meet this threshold.


  10. 07/03/2011 at 12:24 AM

    As you said Kurt agree or not I do not see historism the same way you may see it – but that is my thoughts only _ I cannot see the church any where in Daniel and I also do not see it in Revelations beginning with the first seal onward – although the tens if not hundreds of millions that will be beheaded and saved during the tribulation would really be Christians if they died defending Christ


  11. William L. Irwin
    07/14/2011 at 7:59 PM

    We are endowed by our creator with certain rights. Among these rights is one that allows you to believe whatever you want. Some people are waiting for a statue to come to life and start talking. Those people are free to do so. Some people do not believe in any god whatsoever. They are free to do so. Islam is just as obvious as communism as far as being antichrist. Evolution is antichrist also. There are many antichrists and antichrist systems. Satan is the father of lies and confusion and he is working overtime to keep the sheeple as ignorant as possible. Satan has given the world the DOUBLE WHAMMY. People are basically caught in a two pronged spiritual attack. Satan is behind WHORE CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM. Believe it or not. The world gets Ezekiel 38 and 39 too. The Pope is the BEAST with two horns of Revelation 13 and they are 1. The Holy See and 2. The State of Vatican City . Each is a SEPARATE and SOVEREIGN entity that has a HEAD of STATE. The POPE is the HEAD WITH TWO HORNS, separate and sovereign. The EUROPEAN UNION is the IMAGE of Revelation 13. There are consequences for being duped or should I say VICTIMIZED. The end days, when people are being slain of Satan and of the LORD! I should throw the QUEEN OF HEAVEN down the well to give the MYSTICAL IMAM something to do until he ushers in the HOLY JIHAD. I can hear it now, Billy threw the Queen of Heaven into the well so the Mystical Imam could have his way with her until he started the holy war.They don’t even exist. No harm, no foul then. So much for WHORE CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM. No Queen of Heaven(hint) in ISLAM but there is in WHORE CHRISTIANITY. Islam and whore christianity are full of raping murdering bastards and history will bear that truth out. You can always believe the earth is flat and the moon is made of green cheese. After all you have the right to believe whatever you want but there are consequences for your beliefs. Hey, how about that TOWER OF BABEL penetrating the stars of the Queen of Heaven Flag?You know the one on the poster issued by the COUNCIL OF EUROPE. It sure looks like BABYLONIAN WHOREDOM to me.Hey, how about that TREATY OF ROME pictured LYING on the inverted stars of the E.U. QUEEN OF HEAVEN FLAG? You know the photo that has been on the Council of Europe website for YEARS. Never heard of those things? oh well, what do you want from me? I didn’t invent those things, THEY DID! What you believe is on YOU.


  12. 07/14/2011 at 10:12 PM

    William L. Irwin :
    We are endowed by our creator with certain rights. Among these rights is one that allows you to believe whatever you want. Some people are waiting for a statue to come to life and start talking. Those people are free to do so. Some people do not believe in any god whatsoever. They are free to do so. Islam is just as obvious as communism as far as being antichrist. Evolution is antichrist also. There are many antichrists and antichrist systems. Satan is the father of lies and confusion and he is working overtime to keep the sheeple as ignorant as possible. Satan has given the world the DOUBLE WHAMMY. People are basically caught in a two pronged spiritual attack. Satan is behind WHORE CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM. Believe it or not. The world gets Ezekiel 38 and 39 too.

    The above I agree with in entirety. Very clearly true.

    William L. Irwin :
    The Pope is the BEAST with two horns of Revelation 13 and they are 1. The Holy See and 2. The State of Vatican City . Each is a SEPARATE and SOVEREIGN entity that has a HEAD of STATE. The POPE is the HEAD WITH TWO HORNS, separate and sovereign. The EUROPEAN UNION is the IMAGE of Revelation 13. There are consequences for being duped or should I say VICTIMIZED.

    The above is debatable; certainly many people believe something similar.

    William L. Irwin :
    The end days, when people are being slain of Satan and of the LORD! I should throw the QUEEN OF HEAVEN down the well to give the MYSTICAL IMAM something to do until he ushers in the HOLY JIHAD. I can hear it now, Billy threw the Queen of Heaven into the well so the Mystical Imam could have his way with her until he started the holy war.They don’t even exist. No harm, no foul then. So much for WHORE CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM. No Queen of Heaven(hint) in ISLAM but there is in WHORE CHRISTIANITY.

    This part was crude, but funny.

    William L. Irwin :
    Islam and whore christianity are full of raping murdering bastards and history will bear that truth out. You can always believe the earth is flat and the moon is made of green cheese. After all you have the right to believe whatever you want but there are consequences for your beliefs.

    Again, completely true.

    William L. Irwin :
    Hey, how about that TOWER OF BABEL penetrating the stars of the Queen of Heaven Flag?You know the one on the poster issued by the COUNCIL OF EUROPE. It sure looks like BABYLONIAN WHOREDOM to me.Hey, how about that TREATY OF ROME pictured LYING on the inverted stars of the E.U. QUEEN OF HEAVEN FLAG? You know the photo that has been on the Council of Europe website for YEARS. Never heard of those things? oh well, what do you want from me? I didn’t invent those things, THEY DID! What you believe is on YOU.

    More speculation, with perhaps hints of truth. I doubt it, but time will tell.

    Don’t I only have to believe in a truine God that sent Yeshua into the world to save men who trusted in His work on the cross? The rest we can debate until we see him riding on the clouds.


  13. William L. Irwin
    07/15/2011 at 11:07 AM

    If anyone would like to see the poster google search this,” anno mundi road to Rome and Babylon” an image of the poster will appear, click on it and it will enlarge so that the fine print can be read. Also google search this,” council of europe photographic library special events 50th anniversary of the signature of the Treaty of Rome”. After getting both the poster and the picture of the Treaty of Rome placed on an inverted E.U. Flag compare the two. I am not making any of this up. Also in the photographic library special events section you can look for the signing of the E.U. Constitution. The reason for this is you can see the actual room where the Treaty of Rome was signed on March 25, 1957. Both the E.U. Constitution and the Treaty of Rome were signed in the same exact room. Upon seeing the photos you will understand. By all means keep the faith. We are saved by grace through faith and not of works, lest any should boast. knowledge puffs up but love builds up. However, ” My people perish for lack of knowledge”. Satan specializes in taking advantage of ignorance where ever it may be found. Satan is infamous for taking decent Godly people and using them for his evil purposes. Satan can do this because they are BIBLICALLY IGNORANT. Wisdom can spare people much suffering and needless fear, it is a great treasure if you have it.Many “believers” are so befuddled and bewildered that they simply remain silent. Oh, they will live to tell the tale in eternity all safe and sound thank the LORD. Clinging to the Lord and John 3:16 is not a mistake. Wear the armor described in Ephesians 6 and use the sword of the SPIRIT. Trust me, this WAR is waged very very fast and in real time. Keep the FAITH, stay on duty and be a good soldier for the LORD. May the peace that passes all understanding comfort you. You are not alone, BILLY


  14. 07/15/2011 at 12:19 PM


    I like your spirit. Keep up the vigilance. Be open to potentially changing your mind on non-essentials.

    And dang it, USE PARAGRAPHS!



  15. William L. Irwin
    07/17/2011 at 4:25 PM

    Just for the record, I barely know how to use a computer. I have a G.E.D. Back in the Garden of Eden the Lord said that from woman would come one that would crush the serpents(SATAN) head but it would bruise his heel. The pregnancy term of woman is nine months to the day. The time from the VERNAL EQUINOX to the WINTER SOLSTICE is nine months to the day. If one were to examine historic religions a pattern appears. Annunciation of birth of the god on the VERNAL EQUINOX and birth of the god on the WINTER SOLSTICE.Satan counterfeited the promise that from the woman would come the Savior. Satan set up a system by way of worldly rulers where he overlaid the pregnancy term of woman onto the VERNAL EQUINOX and WINTER SOLSTICE. The list of known religions using this pattern is very extensive. On the JULIAN CALENDAR (Julius Caesar) the VERNAL EQUINOX is March 25th and the WINTER SOLSTICE is December 25th. In ROME March 25th was known as the MAGNA MATER which is Latin for “GREAT MOTHER”. March 25th was also called the HILARIA MATRIS DEUM which is Latin for “JOY OF THE MOTHER OF THE GODS”. In ROME December 25th was known as SOL INVICTI which is Latin for “UNCONQUERABLE SUN”. The WHORE, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH that sits on the city of seven hills,that great city which rules over the kings of the earth, ROME retained the dates and renamed them by so called christian names. The MAGNA MATER (GREAT MOTHER) HILARIA MATRIS DEUM(JOY OF THE MOTHER OF THE GODS) of March 25th formerly new years day just for the record was renamed the ANNUNCIATION OF THE BIRTH OF THE LORD. SOL INVICTI (UNCONQUERABLE SUN) of December 25th was renamed the BIRTH OF THE LORD. Pope Gregory Xlll made a calendar which is named after him called the GREGORIAN CALENDAR which is currently in use in the former ROMAN EMPIRE and elsewhere including the U.S.A. and LATIN AMERICA. An old time religion, a solar religion, a BABYLONIAN religion has been retained and renamed and passed off as the TRUTH onto the people. The ANNUNCIATION OF THE BIRTH OF THE LORD ON MARCH 25TH is the ANNUNCIATION OF THE BIRTH OF THE EUROPEAN UNION MARCH 25,1957 “TREATY OF ROME”. The E.U. is the offspring of the BEAST with two horns,the POPE(FATHER)and the WHORE OF BABYLON the MOTHER. ROME, the home of the BEAST with two horns and the Whore, the BIRTHPLACE of the EUROPEAN UNION which is the IMAGE of REVELATION 13(eikon with pneuma) and it SPEAKS from the TOWER OF BABYLON (BABEL)! Whore Christanity is a SATANIC COUNTERFEIT, QUEER as a three dollar bill.


  16. 07/17/2011 at 8:53 PM

    William L. Irwin

    What you are saying above is very interesting reading but I have seen this many years ago – My thoughts have not changed regards Islam being the producer and the father of the A/C – I think what we may be seeing and coming together in what you have pointed out is possible evidence of what MAY BE the spirit of CHRISLAM on a world wide scale – for the sake of peace and harmony the world churches may unite in a spirit of CHRISLAM of sorts

    The RCC certainly has been a False Prophet through out its history – Jerimiah below seems to connect with the Beast out of the sea and the Beast out of the earth and it may well be the RCC appearing as the False Prophet – Modern day Popes have tried to make arrangments with Islam and we are hearing more and more about CHRISLAM and there is a prophecy by an Irish priest Malachy that the last pope will be an anti-pope Peter the Roman – but is this factual or not we will have to wait and see

    ISLAM / HARLOT BABYLON the 10 Middle East Islamic nations

    Jer 51:42 The sea will rise over Babylon; its roaring waves will cover her”

    The Beast out of the Sea

    Rev 13:1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. — And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. Rev 13:2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority

    FALSE PROPHET RCC / CHRISLAM or a form there of

    The Beast out of the Earth

    Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. Rev 13:12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed

    Rev 17:15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. Rev 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire

    Why will the A/C hate the False Prophet ?? one reason may be because of the historical hatrid and struggle between the 2 religions – the would that was healed may well be Europe destroyed finacialy as we are seeing happen but some how renewed or revived out of the ashes. I am olny thinking out loud with what evidence we see around us on a daily bases. The ME is disintigrating, Europe is on the verge, the US is also not looking very pretty at the moment and I think very soon we are going to see James chapter 5 come to fulfillment on a much larger scale.

    Soon very soon many of the answers to questions we are asking and seeking answers too will be answered.


  17. 07/17/2011 at 9:12 PM

    Another thought worth considering is that Istambul, Rome and also Mecca are known a cities with seven hills. Rome being connected with Christianity, Mecca with islam and Istambul or Constantinople with both Christianity and Islam – remember Turkey also is home to the seven churches of Revelations and the history that John connects with these seven churches – and we are seeing Turkey coming alive on a daily bases with the latest enlarging its army by 500,000 men ??

    Constantine ruled from Constantinople which today is Istanbul. This city is also known as the city on seven hills and it sits on two continents Europe and Asia.

    There are seven mountains not hills around Mecca. Jabal in Arabic mean’s mountain and the names of the seven mountains around Mecca are Jabal Quba, Jabal Al-Qinaa, Jabal Li Aali, Jabal Jifan, Jabal Jiyad, Jabal Abi Qubais, and Jabal Hindi


  18. William L. Irwin
    07/19/2011 at 12:33 PM

    Hello everyone, I wish to thank everyone for their kindness to me. Constantine put the ROMAN in Roman Catholic. His victory at the Melvian Bridge over Maxentius in 312 in ROME was the beginning of ROMAN, WHORE CHRISTIANITY. A year after the battle it became the STATE RELIGION of the ROMAN EMPIRE. Constantine, on the day of his death was baptized by Eusibeus a so called heretic. I am familiar with the other candidate cities. In my opinion with everything having been considered am CONVINCED that ROME and only ROME matches the biblical description of the city described in the Book of Revelation. It is an intellectual give in that once the beast with two horns is present the beast with seven heads ten horns and ten crowns exists also. The causal relationship (belief system) having been established between the beast with the two horns and the people concerning the creation of the IMAGE( European Union) lead me to the CONCLUSION. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that ROME is SPIRITUAL BABYLON. The Image being the EUROPEAN UNION speaks from the TOWER OF BABEL. Europa on the bull is very much a part of the beast with seven heads ten horns and ten crowns. Therefore to see the IMAGE being represented by EUROPA on the BULL is to be COMPLETELY EXPECTED. The beast with two horns does not cause the people to make an IMAGE of himself but rather of the beast with seven heads ten horns and ten crowns. When one reads “HIS” image that means it is “HIS” because he owns it and is responsible for the people making it.Example, if “John Doe” causes people to make him an image of something else whose IMAGE is it? It is HIS image. It is not HIS IMAGE in the sense of a reflection of the beast with two horns like a lamb. It is an image of the beast with seven heads ten horns and ten crowns yet it is,” HIS IMAGE”. It is HIS image because he causes the people to make it and he is responsible for the people making it and he OWNS IT “TREATY OF ROME”. I hope the information has helped remove a stumbling block to understanding as to just what is going on here. People can believe whatever they want and believe me they do. I am going to quote now someone I agree with,” COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE”. Anyone that believes that all this is just some kind of strange coincidence or an accident or some kind of misunderstanding I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell to you. Believe what you like, I’m not stopping anyone. William Le Roy Irwin and again thankyou for your kindness .


  19. 07/19/2011 at 4:04 PM

    William L. Irwin – it is debates like these that keep Gods word The Living Word – I believe that God wrote the bible is such a way to cause debate, not meaning this in a bad way by any means but just as we are doing here to keep us focused right in the heart of his word – I am sure everyone of us regardless of were we are in our search will come to find out that each of us did not have all of the answers.

    I too was convinced that Rome was IT – but after years of in depth study in the book of Daniel I see no other option but to believe that Rome is not it – everything began in the ME rolling off of the mountains of Ararat and focused around that area of the world beginning with Babel, Babylon, Assyria, Persia, Alexanders ME victories, Greco Rome etc.

    It is true that Rome was a great power but it should be seen as Greco-Rome, So was England a great power, so was the USA a great power, China is also a great power as have others been in history. But none of these surround Israel or are known as enimies of Israel in a direct sense, even though they certainly are not pro-Israel.

    I can see a family tree of sorts in the Table of Nation Gen 10 through out the ME which connect with the evel one or the AC beginning with Noah – we have the offspring of Ham all connected right into king Herod also a picture of the AC. We have Ham – Cush – Nimrod, Ishmael, Esau, Nebuchadnezzar, Herod –

    Ham was cursed, Cush was cursed, Ishmael was cursed, Esau was also cursed, he produced king Herod also cursed, Nimrod was a warrior so this also could be seen as a curse, he built the land of Shinar forerunner of Babylonia, Nebuchadnezzar was cursed as a beast, he was the only King that became a BEAST OF THE EARTH for seven years – this alone points to something, he is also the only one who forced people to fall down and worship his IMAGE just like the AC will make people do. Just like the Muslims and Islam do today when they fall to their knees and worship ALLAH facing MECCA which is on the very south western edge of the empire once known as Babylonia – they fall down just like those at Nebu’s Image did.

    Mecca is also surrounded by some major volcanoes which are once again now coming alive after being dead some several thousands of years and we are told that this city will be burnt. THis could be Rome or Mecca, but because Islam is there the religion of Satan I would suggest that it will be Mecca – Personnely I think because of the vast amounts of oil production going on on the Arabian plate this may be a trigger or a catyalist for the GREAT EARTH QUAKE that will happen in the ME – I was was an oilman working right on this very plate and know some of the geology in this area of the world.

    All of the people in the ME the so called mosqito – BITTES for lack of a better description ALL which are today`s Arabs and Muslims originated out of these tribes which all came out of Ham other than the Jews who came out of Shem.

    The curse which was put on Satan in the garden was carried through and continued in Ham, Cush, Ishmael, Esau, Herod and will end with the AC that special someone soon to be exposed in the ME.

    In Zec 9:9 13 where he speaks about The Coming of Zion’s King

    Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.


    Zec 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.

    Zec 9:11 As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit. Zec 9:12 Return to your fortress, O prisoners of hope; even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you. Zec 9:13 I will bend Judah as I bend my bow and fill it with Ephraim. I will rouse your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece, and make you like a warrior’s sword

    My personnel thoughts are that we in the western world are quite like the Sons of Greece at least those who practice Democracy whic was a Greek invention.

    These are my thoughts, are they all correct, probably not but I think that they are on the righ coarse but time will tell and it seems that it may be very, very soon.


  20. 07/19/2011 at 10:18 PM

    Willard, not trying to pick a fight, but where does scripture say Ham was cursed? Yes, he uncovered nakedness, but Ham was already the father of Canaan by that time and for some reason it was Canaan that was cursed, not Ham (Gen 9:20-25). Ham had three other sons that were not part of the curse (Gen 10:6) Africans and others descended from Ham; it is important to understand that these people are not somehow under a curse from God!

    Also, I’ve been reading a commentary of Daniel, and Neb. ate grass for “seven periods of time” (4:32). Although many interpret this to be years, the language and context do not require it, and frankly that is a very long time of derangement to come back from and resume his “majesty and splendor.” Seven is a number of completion over and over in the Bible–Neb’s discipline was complete, I think is what the Bible is saying. It may rather have been seven months, seven seasons, or some other unknown period.


  21. Willard
    07/20/2011 at 1:20 AM

    Kurt – I do not believe personnely nor did I mean to indicate that all of Hams off spring were or are cursed – the message that I was trying to get through was that the curse began because of Hams sin (was this sin a curse or not against him??) when he seen his fathers nakedness and this curse was placed upon his youngest son because of him it was carried through the line of the Cannaite tribe which both Ishmael’s offspring and Esau and his offspring married into. It was also the Land of the Canaan and the Canaanites that God instructed Joshua to drive out and totally destroy.

    My argument is that because of the OT history with curses in this family tree which began with Ham because of his sin and the inter-marrage that toke place with the Canaanite women that I feel there is a good defense to debate and to expect to see the A/C come through Islam and the Arabic Middle Eastern people the offspring of these ancient tribes rather than Rome or Europe.

    The families that came from the Ismaelites and the Edomites all were and still are anti Israel and anti Jewish.

    Regards Nebu – I understand seven times to be seven years which is the most common understanding from what I have seen. When the bible referes to time, times and a half time it is understood as 3.5 years. I could not argue seven month or seven seasons, I am simply going with what the currect understanding is as far as I understand it to be.

    I also understand this tree that was cut down (Nebu) to be a prophecy about the revival of Babylon in the last days. The stump of the tree was to be bound with iron and bronze and the roots were to remain in the grass of the field and his kingdom would once again be restored in the last days. I believe that this is a dual prophecy meaning that his kingdom was restored to him in his days and also would be renewed in the last days to his far distant offspring as the Daughter of Babylon like Jer calls her. We also see a bronze and an iron kingdom in Dan 2 which may connect to these bands of iron and bronze.

    This may or it may not be a refereance to the last days when Iraq broke free of the bronze and iron and once again became it own nation under its own ruler – from the time Babylon fell to when Babylon was re-created as Iraq there was no nation in this land it was always ruled by others the Persians, Greeks etc. Todays Iraq prior to 1920 was bundled in within the Ottoman Empire and known as Mesopaontania. Why did this captivity of the Babylonian lands so to speak last 2520 biblical years from the end of Nebu’s insanity???

    It is thought that it was in 564 BC that Nebuchadnezzar was freed or unbound from his insanity when he ate grass like an animal for 7 years or 2520 days. On Nov 11 1920 Sykes-Picot Agreement Iraq (Babylon) was reborn or recreated and became a League of Nations mandate under British control, the daughter of Babylon was reborn again after 2520 biblical years

    In 1945 Iraq joined the UN which also is 2520 biblical years from when it was destroyed by Persia in 539 BC


  22. 07/20/2011 at 10:37 AM

    2520 is certainly a fascinating number as I learned in “City at the Center of Time”.

    Another question–isn’t Ismael descended from Abraham, a “Shem-mite”? So those descended from Ismael would not be Canaanites… Do Canaanites still exist? Were they wiped out in a previous time?


  23. 07/20/2011 at 10:39 AM

    Also, I think a study of Nebu. would be fascinating–there are many more references to him outside of Daniel than within it. If you plug his name into Bible Gateway you get 4 pages of verses that discuss him.


  24. William L. Irwin
    07/20/2011 at 12:17 PM

    I would like to also point out that there is WORSHIP involved with identification and adoption date of the current E.U. Flag taken from Rev.12:1 and adopted on Dec.8,1955 by the Council of Europe. Dec. 8th is the ROMAN CATHOLIC holiday of the so called “IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF MARY” “QUEEN OF HEAVEN”. So there is WORSHIP of the BEAST with two horns and this WORSHIP is applied to HIS IMAGE (EUROPEAN UNION) also ! WORSHIP is PROVEN AGAIN concerning the BIRTH of HIS IMAGE(EUROPEAN UNION) with the location and date of the signing of the “TREATY OF ROME” signed in ROME on March 25,1957. March 25th is the ROMAN CATHOLIC holiday of the “ANNUNCIATION OF THE BIRTH OF THE LORD”. It is the ANNUNCIATION of the BIRTH of HIS IMAGE(EUROPEAN UNION). WORSHIP of the BEAST and HIS IMAGE the EUROPEAN UNION is PROVEN. LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION. The IMAGE(EUROPEAN UNION) born in ROME and SPEAKING from the TOWER OF BABEL. In the service of the LORD himself, truthfully yours WILLIAM Le ROY IRWIN.


  25. 07/20/2011 at 12:28 PM

    Ishmaels mother was a Cushite (another or first son of Hams) and correct me if I am wrong but as far as I understand this Jews and Arabs carry or trace their race genes through the mothers line just like Jesus came through Mary???

    Something I find interesting which once again defends my argument above is that Zech 14 speaks about THE LORD COMES and REIGNS which is the 1000 year reign. The very last verse in Zec 14:21 tells us that there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty. So the gene pool must be there at the end or last days in some form. To me I have to ask myself the question WHY?

    I think it is because / possibly / likely the family tree that the A/C will use to come through. We need to look closely at Gen 10 as this is The Table of Nations chapter and Hams decendent include all of the ME people. From Cush, father of the Africans, Put father of the Libyans, Canaan father of the tribe that was in Israel before the Jews took the land away from them – which included Gaza etc.

    Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD Almighty

    So what I am saying is that from Ham came Nimrod a mighty hunter (the A/C could be looked at as a Mighty Hunter??) he created the land of Shinar, which became Babylon he also built Assyria – Nimrod built all of the nations that would one day become Israels most hated enimies past and present. It was the sons of Ham and the grandsons and great grandsons and so on that the Arabs and Islamic people that would become a mix of blood lines and would come from. All of the ME and much of Africa originates out of Hams DNA.

    Ge 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; that is why it is said, “Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD.” Ge 10:10 The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Erech, Akkad and Calneh, in Shinar. Ge 10:11 From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah Ge 10:12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calah; that is the great city.

    Something else that is very interesting is that Persia / Iran is not included in this fanily tree just like today the Iranians are not considered Arabs they actually come out of the family of Shem Gen 10:22 Shems son Elam – the Persians are Semites which means they are connected to the Jews I guess DNA wise. But this was all before the Tower of Babel when all of the tribes were scattered.

    THis Table of Nations chapter is still seen in effect today for the most part as far as how the tribes are still separate from each other. Having lived in the ME gives me an advantage as I seen it first hand. The ME is still very tribal, separated by various Islamic sects, bloodlines, etc. WE see this in the news everyday, Bedoines, Kurds, Iranians, Arabs, Assyrians, Turks, Sunnies, Shittites, Alwakis, Wahabis, all setting themselves apart from each other which confirms the prophecy in Gen 16:12

    Again my long argument here (respecting yours and others thoughts though) is that the focus of where the A/C will come from is the ME not Europe or the RCC. But there is little information on the False Prophet where he will come from and this guy may be European – He is a tough argument as to where he will originate from as there is not a lot of information other than he will come out of the earth and have two horns like a lamb which may refect the church East and West but this is only Speculation on my part at this time

    Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon


  26. 07/20/2011 at 12:39 PM

    Kurt – I just looked at my Time line of events that I have and a couple of other numbers jumped out – may mean absalutly nothing but they are interesting none the less. As I said Iraq was created by the British and the Frech in 1920 adding 70 solar year (70 like the time the Jews were in babylon as slaves) we end up at 1990 the year Saddam invaded Q8 and was the beginning of his down fall. Saddam considered himself the new Nebu he even stamed the bricks in rebuildin Babylon with his name.

    When they became an independent UN member in 1945 add 70 years agin brings us to 2015 the year we are both looking at. But again it is interesting at least to me buy must be taken with a grain of salt? THis nuber 2520 is through out and over and over in the book of Daniel and especially connected with the kingdom of Babylon over the 70 years that the Jews were their slaves. It is really uncanny and there certainly is something to it. It even shows up in the Writing on the wall.


  27. 07/20/2011 at 2:39 PM

    Kurt – your comment on Nebu – The book of Judith in the Septiguint the first chapter refers to king Nabuchodosor (Nebuchadnezzar) as the king of the ASSYRIANS – Most recognize him as king of the Babylonians but Judith says the Assyrians

    In 2:14 his general Holofernes went forth from the presence of his lord, and called all the governors and captains, and the officers of the army of Assur – ASSUR is also associated with the A/C just like The Assyrian is in the book of Micha

    The evidence for the A/C always point North and East of Jerusalem


  28. 07/20/2011 at 3:42 PM

    If “the beast” turns out to be single person heading Islam, I have no problem scripturally if that person hails from N & E of Jerusalem.

    Regarding a “time” being a year, just because it seems clearly meant to be a year in one context doesn’t mean that’s what it is in another, even in the same book.

    Hagar was Egyptian, and if they descended from Cush (that may be scriptural, I haven’t the time to track it down), that still doesn’t put them in the cursed line of Canaan. For whatever reason (perhaps Canaan encouraged Ham to uncover Noah, or was in some other way participatory–certainly there is more to the story than a single verse in Genesis), Canaan is specifically cursed because of Ham’s action.

    I think it important to distinguish between Arabs and Mt. Sinai/the Law/Hagar the bond woman… the latter group is type, illustrating bondage to the law and sin, while the former can be set free and serve God just like any other people. I’m sure you’re not misunderstanding that, but it is an important thing to be clear about. So, the descendants of Hagar are NOT cursed, particularly since their father Ham was not cursed.


  29. William L. Irwin
    07/21/2011 at 11:51 AM

    The LABYRINTH has its BULL and some are on the HORNS of a dilemma. I have two words of interest which describe the situation “cognitive dissonance.” You don’t have to live in Egypt to be the Queen of Denial. Well,perhaps there is a small consolation WHORE CHRISTANITY and ISLAM give a set of beads to use. Think of the entertainment value and beads provide a sense of “accomplishment” and “commitment”.The beads make you look so “religious” too. Sounding like a broken record always makes an impression with the Lord. The least they can do is twiddle their thumbs and it is a popular way to pass the time amongst the “followers”. After they’ve said the same thing over and over at least 1,000,000 times, when their minds are finally washed clean of any sign of critical thought this their reward. They can sing in the congregation of ZOMBIES located in the CHURCH/MOSQUE of the BEWILDERED on NUMB SKULL St. Ignorant is one thing, willful ignorance is another, denial of truth another,holding the truth in unrighteousness,suppression of truth included, deceivers and deceived.This is what the devil’s advocate says,”The Pied Piper can only lead the RATS.” This is what the LORD says,”the blind lead the blind and they both end up in the ditch” and “let the dead bury their own dead” they end up in a ditch too. O.K. Lord, after this comment I’m through with them. Each end of the BULL has a reward, to get one you have to get the other and believe me there are MANY winners. I’m not talking about a longhorn sermon with a point here and a point there and a lot of BULL in between. I’m out of here


  30. 07/21/2011 at 3:26 PM

    Back to the discussion of Ham/Canaan and the curse, there is a good discussion on the topic here, particularly the 5th post by Mark51: http://www.christiandoctrinediscussion.com/general-discussion-forum/3292-the-curse-of-ham.html Some of it is speculative, but he makes some solid points.


  31. 07/21/2011 at 4:44 PM

    William L. Irwin – I am not sure I understand or grasp your tirade but I take no offense – clearly you are very dogmatic, and closed to debate and cannot handle any disagreemt with your position whatsoever which is fine as I see this as your loss not mine and it does suggest that you are not open to be challenged or in finding the truth. This is a discussion to find the truth and you have not proven scriptualy at least not to me that Rome is who you say it is. You have not even bothered to address my thoughts or position simply an out right rejection. If you can show me ROME in Daniel or Revelation I will be the first to acknowledge it – but you cannot – In fact Rev 17:8 when John is speaking about the Beast he clearly stated that the BEAST IS NOT – yet ROME was the power of that day PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY JOHN SAID THIS – if ROME would have been the Beast would he not have said something like NOW HE IS

    Rev 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss m and go to his destruction

    Other than Matt 24 Lk 21 and Mark 13 where the Romans ripped apart the rocks within Jerusalem Rome cannot be defended or proven as doing anything in relation to prophecy against Israel. You have supplied no scripture that points directly to Rome as being who you suggest that Rome is. In fact Daniel is clear the 3rd kingdom is (Bronze) Greece and the fourth kingdom is the ten toes of iron and clay – the iron legs have no number. WHY do they not have a number !!!! because they are a continuation of the Bronze belly and thighs Greco-Rome

    You have pointed out a lot of EU political history and early church history but nothing from scripture to support any of your suggestions or positions. I would suggest that it makes a good story line but it is a diversionary tactic used by Satan to keep all eyes focused away from Islam his religion that he created. He is the one that took much of the prophecy out of the bible and corrupted it into what is called the Koran.

    Also The Beast coming out of the Sea is both in Rev 13:1 and Dan 7:3 And it is the same Beasts we find in Dan and Rev – They are refered to as a Lion, a Bear and a Leopard – Baylon – Persia and Greece and the final one of iron Satan as the AC and Islam – further along in Dan the Little Horn came up AMONGST the FOUR HORNS OF ALEXANDER – the four jorns of Alexander never set foot in Rome or Europe.

    Da 7:3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea. Da 7:4 “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it. Da 7:5 “And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’

    Da 7:6 “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule. Da 7:7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. a It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

    Da 7:8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully

    The Beast out of the Sea

    Rev 13:1…… And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. Rev 13:2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.



  32. ICA
    07/21/2011 at 5:20 PM

    Revelation 17:3, “Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.”

    @ William L. Irwin: If the ‘woman sitting on a scarlet beast’ is referring to Rome, when was Rome ever a desert? Or when was Rome ever an empty wilderness? This simple yet significant detail alone suggests that it is not Rome that is in view here, but rather a place such as Mecca — the spiritual birthplace and homestead of Islam — which is, in Walid Shoebat’s own words, nothing but a ‘Christian cult’. The desert kingdom of Saudi Arabia has spread Wahhabism and radical Islamic theology throughout the earth and the beast that she has nurtured and ridden throughout the centuries will soon bite the hand that fed it.

    Who better fits the description of the ‘Whore of Babylon’ — the Roman Catholic church (which isn’t perfect but teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and teaches the Triune nature of God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit), or blasphemous Islamic theology (which denies that Jesus Christ is God the Son who has come in the flesh, and denies God the Father in place of ‘Allah’, which denies the Triune nature of God as revealed in the Biblical text and which sanctions the beheading of ‘infidels’ — anybody who leaves the Islamic faith or who refuses to convert to Islam)?

    Take a moment to read through my comment at the top of the following two article posts and think about this question very carefully:

    Muslims Down Under Go Over-The-Top, Burn More Bridges with Plan to Expand Offensive Anti-Christian Signs to Other Cities

    Saudi Arabia: Riyadh Will Build Nuclear Weapons if Iran Gets Them, Saudi Prince Warns


  33. 07/21/2011 at 5:36 PM

    Thanks for the link Kurt there is good info there – I have read some years ago cannot recall exactly where or who wrote it that the the language in refereance to Ham and I have no means to decypher this some how indicates or suggests that Ham Looked longingly on his father Noah’s nakedness which would indicate Homosexual desires – but this may be total conjector – but is it not understood that God had just destroyed the entire world because of this sin amongst many sins – and this may be a reason that Canaan was cursed because of what God just done to all living kind

    I find it amazing how little we have changed or advanced since the days of Noah sin wise. God had just destroyed the entire world and one of the first things Noah does is get drunk and passes out and what may be a suggestion in Hams actions that Homosexuality still is around after all this family went through.

    I have to agree that Ham himself was likely not cursed – but if this were to happen to me to one of my kids because of something that I would have done to bring a curse upon them I certainly would feel cursed myself.


  34. William L. Irwin
    07/22/2011 at 11:59 AM

    The murderous,raping,lying, ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH has more blood on it than Islam. If Islam ever wants to find an example beyond itself of how to lie,murder,rape,steal and BLASPHEME all they have to do is look at the ROMAN Catholic Church. The POPE, the BEAST with TWO HORNS,the MAN opposed to and in place of the LORD is the representative of SATAN. There is your ANGEL OF LIGHT. You believe in the Lord,so do the DEMONS. The redirection campaign of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH is as DOOMED as it is. Man is expendable as far as SATAN is concerned. Satan has been using WHORE CHRISTANITY and ISLAM for centuries as a DEVICE to gather up the nations against ISRAEL.The Sons of Ishmael are duped by SATAN by way of Islam. The GENTILES are duped by SATAN by way of WHORE CHRISTIANITY. When the puppet master, clown representatives of Whore Christianity and Islam claim that they worship the same god there is something to that and this is it, his name is SATAN. People can quote chapter and verse until they are BLUE in the face. People can search the scriptures day and night.You can hail mary or hail a taxi for all I care. Your head can spin like DERVISH for all I care. It is your RIGHT to believe whatever you want. WHORE CHRISTANITY is antichrist and so is ISLAM and the DEVIL is in the details. That is what I believe and I will stand before the LORD, THE KING OF THE JEWS and SAY SO. “I was looking for the forest but there were so many trees I couldn’t find it” this is how stupid some people are. If you are in you are in. If you are out you are out. Whatever the LORD determines is just fine with me. I hope none perish but I soldier on no matter what happens. I will not be back here again not even to read any further comments or questions. KEEPING IT REAL, BILLY


  35. 07/22/2011 at 1:56 PM

    God Bless you in your search may he open all minds to his truth

    Ro 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is his good, pleasing and perfect will

    1Th 5:19 Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 1Th 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt.
    1Th 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to the good

    1Jn 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1Jn 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

    Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth


  36. 07/22/2011 at 3:35 PM

    Bill and Will,

    The truth is both the RCC and Islam have a tremendous amount of blood to account for. Its hard to say which is more beastly and anti-Christ, but it is certain that both are. That, of course, is not to say that all Muslims are violent or that there are no born again people within the Roman Church.



  37. ICA
    07/22/2011 at 10:45 PM

    William L. Irwin – “The murderous,raping,lying, ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH has more blood on it than Islam.”

    And you’ve gotten this information from where exactly? What happened to the Seven Churches of Asia mentioned in Paul’s letters? Have they all become Roman Catholic, or have they all been destroyed and/or converted into mosques through Islamic conquest? The fact of the matter is this, which no serious historian will deny: Islamic jihad is the greatest mass murderer in the history of humanity.

    “Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the victims of jihad. The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest…

    The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam. In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad.

    Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school.” (FrontPage Magazine Feb. 2007). Also see here.

    And these numbers continue to rise today, each and every day. See here and here for just two examples among many.

    Allow me to ask the following questions:

    Are there any Roman Catholics who are born-again and saved by the blood of Christ, as they teach that Jesus is God in the flesh who died on the cross for the sins of the world?

    Are there any Muslims who are born again and saved by the blood of Christ, even though they deny that Jesus is God in the flesh who died on the cross for the sins of the world?

    If Roman Catholicism is the Beast, how is it that there can be Roman Catholics who are saved? If the Book of Revelation speaks about events that not only happen throughout history, but also in the eschaton of time, why do you consider Roman Catholicism the Antichrist/Beast when Islam has inflicted much more death against Christians, and why is Roman Catholicism today not killing non-Catholic Christians when Islam continues to do so at an ever increasing pace? Why is the Pope not calling for the heads of Protestant Christians, when radical Islamists all over the world call for it even today? Does it not stand to reason that Islam — which calls for the killing of all Christians regardless of whether one is Catholic or Protestant, and which also sanctions the beheading of these ‘infidels’ — is in fact the Beast that both Daniel and John prophesied about, and not Roman Catholicism wherein there are those who are born again by the Holy Spirit of God?


    • 10/16/2014 at 11:39 AM

      Jesus Christ has raised me (St. Elijah/St. John the Baptist) from the dead, and he has given me the name Petrus Romanus (Peter the Roman). I have been resurrected for over 59 years and I will never die. A great chastisement is coming from heaven in the great noise and ignition of the atmospheric elements. (cf. 2 Peter 3:10-14)


  38. 07/22/2011 at 11:46 PM

    The Catholic Church certainly killed millions, and likely 10’s of millions over about 1200-1300 years, about the same as the 1260 days/years that most Reformers attributed to the Catholic Church as beast and antichrist. I’ve seen the figure 50 or 60 million murdered by the church itself or the its state accomplices, such as the King of France, over the centuries. Here is a website detailing some of the inquisitions, torture methods and other horrendous information: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm#The%20Church

    No doubt Islam is responsible for many multiples of the deaths caused by the Catholic Church.


  39. ICA
    07/23/2011 at 11:25 AM

    As horrendous as these Dark Ages were, it was not just Roman Catholics killing Protestants. It was also Protestants killing Roman Catholics. If the Roman Catholics were called Antichrist/The Beast because of the way they treated Protestants, what does that in turn make the Protestants who sanctioned and called for scores of Roman Catholics to be executed? As the link above even acknowledges, “Protestant and Catholic rivaled each other in the madness of the hour.” Both killed each other incessantly. But regardless of the infighting and bloodlust that existed within ‘Christendom’ during that time, another force was out to destroy them both — not only then but also now — and we see it happening throughout the Middle East and the West on the news to this very day.


  40. ICA
    07/27/2011 at 4:34 PM

    Anyone who still holds to the view that the Beast of Revelation is the Roman Catholic church, please take a moment to watch the video below and read through the article here regarding the Mark of the Beast. Then, in light of the nearly 1400 years of Islamic Jihad waged against Jews and Christians per above, ask yourself, ‘Which view is more reasonable?’ …


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