Home > Theology and Eschatology > Lost in Translation: ‘Not Appointed Unto Wrath’ – What Scripture Is Really Saying

Lost in Translation: ‘Not Appointed Unto Wrath’ – What Scripture Is Really Saying


By ICA

1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ …”

Buy a book written by virtually any popular Bible prophecy teacher today and you are guaranteed — at some point within the confines of its pages — to read a sentence or two that sounds a little something like this: “The Bible says that we are not appointed unto wrath, which means that Christians are not destined to suffer the wrath of God. Since the Tribulation is the wrath of God the Church must therefore be removed from the earth before the Tribulation begins. Otherwise, the Bible is lying.” You get the idea. It sounds reasonable, right? Because if the premisses are true then the conclusion must be sound, correct? In theory, yes, but only if all of the premisses are true. So allow me, if I may, to take a closer look at the “not appointed unto wrath” proposition that leads many of us to conclude “removal from the earth”, and join me as together we delve a little bit more into the text in an effort to better understand the wrath that we see in the Book of Revelation, and the wrath that we specifically are not appointed unto. Something very, very important has been lost in translation.

First, let’s begin by looking at all the verses which tell us that we are not appointed to wrath, or are saved from wrath:

  • 1 Thess 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
  • 1 Thess 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”
  • Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
  • Eph 5:6, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

Next, let’s look at the Greek word specifically used for “wrath” in each of these verses to better understand what we are studying:

  • 1 Thess 1:10, — The wrath that we will be delivered from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
  • 1 Thess 5:9, — The wrath that we are not appointed to is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
  • Romans 5:9, — The wrath that we are saved from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).
  • Eph 5:6, — The wrath upon those who are disobedient is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

The original text of Scripture is simple and straightforward. We are not appointed to suffer, and are saved from, the “orge” wrath of God.

The “Orge” Wrath of God in the Book of Revelation – When Does It Begin?

Next, let’s examine the wrath of God that is described in Revelation. The word “wrath” itself is found 13 times in English translations of Revelation, but what many teachers of Biblical prophecy fail to delineate is the fact that, in the original Greek, the word translated as “wrath” is not just simply from the Greek word “orge”. It is from two separate words — “orge” and “thymos.”  Since many Christian teachers fail to identify this significant distinction they also then fail to realize that the “orge” wrath of God that we are promised to be saved from according to the verses above is itself only found six times in Revelation. And here’s the kicker:  Each time “orge” is found it is always used in a post-trib context only:

1 and 2. It is mentioned AFTER the cosmic signs and the revealing of Christ Jesus (Revelation 6:16-17). Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms that these signs happen immediately AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 24:29).

3. It is found AFTER the SEVENTH trumpet (Revelation 11:18). When the 7th and last trump begins to sound we find the rapture described in Revelation 10, which is explained in detail here.

4. It is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (Revelation 14:10, the wine of the “thymos” of God is poured out into “the cup of His indignation“- orge).

5. It is found AFTER the SEVENTH vial/bowl (Revelation 16:19). (The trumpets and bowls are two sides of the same coin. They are separate descriptions of the same events whereby the trumpets are the cause and the vials/bowls are the effect).

6. It is used in connection with Christ’s Second Coming (Revelation 19:15).

Moreover, according to John in the Book of Revelation, the “thymos” wrath is directed upon a very specific group only — the Antichrist, his land, his kingdom, those who have received the Mark of the Beast, those who worship the image of the Beast, those who have shed the blood of the saints (cf. Revelation 16). Those upon whom the vials/bowls of “thymos” are being poured are still given the opportunity to repent, but they refuse (Revelation 9:20-21; 16:9-11). When the “orge” wrath comes, however, there is no such provision for repentance. According to the text, it appears that we will be here on earth witnessing these events right up until the beginning of the seventh and last trumpet, at which point we are then immediately gathered together to Christ just before the “orge” wrath comes upon the wicked.

According to the preponderance of the evidence, the text is therefore telling us that the “orge” wrath that we are saved from is not the same type of wrath that we find during Great Tribulation. The “orge” wrath that we are saved from is only found immediately after the tribulation at the Second Coming of Christ. As such, even if the rapture does not happen until immediately after the tribulation we are still saved from the “orge” of God as promised, yet still present to witness the “thymos” wrath of the first six trumpets and vials/bowls upon Antichrist, Antichrist’s kingdom, and Antichrist’s people (for more on Antichrist and Antichrist’s kingdom, see here).

What is the Difference Between “Orge” and “Thymos” Wrath?

When presented with this reality, some will then incorrectly assume that both the “orge” and “thymos” wrath of God must somehow have essentially the same meaning. If that were the case, however, then why did the Holy Spirit inspire the writers of the New Testament to use them both? Why were they both used at times in the same verse? Why does God-breathed Scripture only tell us that we are saved from the “orge” wrath? Obviously, although both “orge” and “thymos” could have similar meanings they must still be qualitatively distinct. Here are some examples where they are both used in the same verse:

Colossians 3:8, “But now ye also put off all these; anger (orge), wrath (thymos), malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth”

Revelation 14:10, “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath (thymos) of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation (orge); and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”

Revelation 16:19, “And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness (thymos) of his wrath (orge).”

Truth be told, the trumpets are themselves not even identified as “wrath” anywhere at all in the text. As was mentioned above, however, the trumpets and vials/bowls are opposite sides of the same coin where the trumpet is the cause and the vial/bowl is the effect. Knowing that the vials/bowls are called the “thymos” wrath of God would therefore associate the trumpets with “thymos” wrath as well, which is defined as sudden and passionate anger but an anger that will boil up only to subside again later. With the “orge” wrath that is found only after the Second Coming of Christ, however, we see deliberate anger. We see righteous indignation. We see the hostile and violent vengeance of a just and true God, and every time in Scripture we read that we as believers are not appointed to wrath or will be delivered from His wrath it is always the post-trib “orge” wrath of God only. In the “orge” wrath the anger will not subside. It will not abate. It is not a punishment to chasten and invoke repentance like the “thymos” of God — because when the “orge” of God comes it is then too late.

Proverbs 10:30, “The righteous will never be removed, But the wicked will not inhabit the earth.”

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  1. 03/26/2011 at 12:57 AM

    Great depth – I truly enjoy your message I have learnt a lot from your site

    God Bless You

    Willard

  2. ICA
    03/26/2011 at 1:20 AM

    Thank you for the kind and encouraging comment, Willard. Blessings …

  3. Kurt Jorgensen
    03/26/2011 at 2:19 AM

    Willard, good to see you found, uh, ICA!

  4. A Bragg
    03/26/2011 at 9:33 AM

    I don’t think that when the scripture talks to Christians and it says that we are “not appointed to wrath”, it is not “Lost in Translation” . It means just what it says. We are not “Appointed Unto Wrath”. Our “going through the tribulation”, as this writer suggests, is not taking the scripture for what it plainly says…

  5. Kurt J.
    03/26/2011 at 12:08 PM

    A Bragg, just so I understand, you are saying that we will not go through the tribulation based on 1 Thes 5:9, etc?

    I suggest you read Midnight Watcher’s article on the timing of the rapture: http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/the-revelation-of-jesus-christ-and-the-rapture-of-the-church/

  6. ICA
    03/26/2011 at 12:32 PM

    A Bragg :

    I don’t think that when the scripture talks to Christians and it says that we are “not appointed to wrath”, it is not “Lost in Translation” . It means just what it says. We are not “Appointed Unto Wrath”. Our “going through the tribulation”, as this writer suggests, is not taking the scripture for what it plainly says…

    Hi A Bragg, thank you for your comment. Yes, it does mean just what it says, I agree. However the Greek text is clear: we are not appointed unto the “orge” of God. Three questions for you:

    1. Why does John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, show us not once but six times that the “orge” of God is post-tribulational only in Revelation?

    2. Why do English translations not make this clear for the reader?

    3. Is exegesis important in our study of the Biblical text if we wish to gauge the intended meaning?

  7. Cocopea
    03/26/2011 at 4:19 PM

    Hi there,

    Great study of scripture you give here. I tend to think we are not appointed to God’s wrath and I am glad about that! I don’t think anyone could survive God’s wrath, and clearly from 1/3 of all men dying, many won’t… but yes, I do think Christians are seeing “hard times”, and will see more of them. In other countries this is already occurring. Here in the USA, we still have some freedoms and provisions.

    But oh boy, when God speaks of pouring out his “wrath”, it is most frightening! And yet, Jesus said that a time will come that no man has ever seen on earth, nor has there been, nor will be again. So even by all the accounts in the Bible when God’s wrath was poured out, destroying entire cities and such… it was still nothing compared to what is to come..scary to say the least. But no, God won’t have his bride here (the Church) during that time. We will not see God’s wrath poured out on a sinful, godless, evil world.

    And I don’t know about anyone else, but I Thank God we will be in Heaven by then!!!! That he made a way of escape for us. The Rapture is our blessed hope! I could not hope for or wish for anything less. To do so would be to sell God short and I know he meant what He promised!!!! Even so, come Lord Jesus!!!

    God Bless!

  8. Kurt Jorgensen
    03/26/2011 at 5:00 PM

    I wonder what the percentage of US/Canadian Christians are who, if they even believe in the rapture, believe it to be “pre-trib”? It must be very high.

  9. ICA
    03/26/2011 at 5:31 PM

    I think many Protestant denominations are still officially ‘pre-trib’. But more and more Christians are themselves changing their view in this respect.

    Cocopea, thank you for your comments. Out of curiosity, what verses do you personally use to support the belief that we will be in Heaven when Antichrist and his kingdom experience the post-tribulational ‘orge’ wrath of God?

    • Cocopea
      03/26/2011 at 6:37 PM

      Hi again,

      Well, just for a quick answer, I look at the context in which Paul is speaking to those in Thessaloníki, 2 Thess chapter 2, explaining that the Antichrist cannot be revealed until the Restrainer/Holy Spirit (the Church) is taken away. We are the Church, once we are removed, the AntiChrist will be revealed. And then you get into Daniel with the 7- year peace treaty and such, which kicks off the beginning of the Trib, further describing the role of the AntiChrist. If the Antichrist were revealed to present day Christians and God’s plan intended for us to be here, then He would indeed be appointing us to wrath and Paul would have no reason to explain anything. The bible tells us pretty much everything the AntiChrist is going to do, with the focus being on Israel. The whole point of the Trib is to turn Israel back to the Lord. And there are many scriptures that speak on that, but most has to be read in context, no just one verse here or there.

      And while there is also debate on the Church vs. the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer, I tend to believe it is the Holy Spirit, because the Church has fallen under such apostasy now. Those that come to Christ after the Rapture are going to have it far worse. Jesus also says he will send a strong delusion so that they may believe the lie. If they were indwelt with the Holy Spirit, they wouldn’t be able to. (though that is more my opinion). We know all the signs and attributes the AntiChrist will have. If he were to come on the scene today, we would know who he is and not fall under his power.

      Also a one world religion to worship Him can never be established as long as Christians are here. Nor can he set up his one world economic system. I mean I don’t know a of a true believer that would take his mark on their hand or forehead today, do you?

      I don’t know that I answered your question, but that is my understanding, though I could be wrong.

      Blessings!

  10. Cocopea
    03/26/2011 at 5:32 PM

    HI Kurt,

    I don’t know the percent either, but from what I’ve read on various End Times boards, from what few Pastors here preach on the Rapture, and just the general lack of knowledge amongst Christians regarding End Time Prophecy and the Rapture, etc., etc., I don’t think it is very high at all. Also, a lot of Christians have admitted to loving their lives (in spite of what Jesus said). They want to get married, buy homes, get their degree’s…older ones want to have grand-children, retire, travel, etc… and those in leadership of mega churches want to keep filling the pews and selling books, raking in the cash, etc. So, the the idea of the Rapture at all, let alone a Pre-Trib view kinda cramps their life styles. Many really believe things will get better….

    On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have many Militant Christians that want to see the Trib for reasons that baffle me! But they want to do battle with the AntiChrist, with the armies coming against nations… and they think it will be for Christ…as if he needs our help…lol…they want to become Martyrs…and just seem to have a death wish. They are planning right now even to survive the Trib, stocking food and weapons…it’s crazy!!!! Most only believe in or know about the Second Coming of Christ. They fully expect to live through all of Revelation.

    But again, it’s not a point to be argued about…not a source of debate in my book. The way I see it, those that want to be here, or think they will be– just don’t yet understand they don’t want to be and won’t. My only desire for more Christians to know about the Pre-Trib Rapture is for the blessed hope it provides. We were told to hope with great joy and anticipation for a reason. If I thought for one second, that there was no Pre-Trib Rapture, or that we’d be going though the Trib, or that we’d see God’s wrath poured out on us, or that we are not the generation that won’t taste death– if I thought any of those things, then I’d have to call God a liar, Jesus a liar, and much of the Bible a lie. That is not something I will ever do or consider doing…but that’s just me…

    Blessings!

  11. ICA
    03/26/2011 at 6:18 PM

    I haven’t met any ‘militant Christians’ who want to experience tribulation and fight Antichrist. That sounds … strange.

    I noticed you mentioned that the pre-trib rapture provides a ‘blessed hope’. The pre-trib position even teaches that the ‘blessed hope’ is the pre-trib rapture and the post-trib rapture cannot be true because that would mean that there could then be no ‘blessed hope’. But have a look at this, I would like to know your thoughts:

    The Apostle Paul wrote in the epistle of Titus the following:

    Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7, “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began … Looking for that blessed hope [eternal life], AND the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ… That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

    Paul uses the word “hope” three times in his epistle — at the beginning when speaking about eternal life and then later while referring to that blessed hope, and then once more again near the end. Each time he is referring to the blessed hope of eternal life. Nowhere does Paul ever say that the “blessed hope” is our gathering to Christ. We are looking for the blessed hope of eternal life, and (in addition to) the glorious appearing of Christ. The Greek includes the word “kai”, which the NIV does not incorporate in the English translation, unfortunately.

    The glorious appearing is the “epiphaneia” (G2015). There is something that is very important about the “epiphaneia” of Christ that very few pre-trib teachers will discuss:

    2 Thess 2:8, “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness [epiphaneia G2015] of his coming”

    The “epiphaneia” is post-trib. If we are to believe that the “blessed hope” of eternal life is actualized at the “epiphaneia” of Christ, then we must therefore also believe that the blessed hope is His post-trib appearance and gathering of the elect. This means that the rapture is post-trib, not pre-trib.

  12. Kurt Jorgensen
    03/26/2011 at 6:25 PM

    Cocopea :
    The way I see it, those that want to be here, or think they will be– just don’t yet understand they don’t want to be and won’t. My only desire for more Christians to know about the Pre-Trib Rapture is for the blessed hope it provides. We were told to hope with great joy and anticipation for a reason. If I thought for one second, that there was no Pre-Trib Rapture, or that we’d be going though the Trib, or that we’d see God’s wrath poured out on us, or that we are not the generation that won’t taste death– if I thought any of those things, then I’d have to call God a liar, Jesus a liar, and much of the Bible a lie. That is not something I will ever do or consider doing…but that’s just me…

    Interesting…

    I wouldn’t actually want to be here, if I had a choice in the matter, during the tribulation. But the truth is we have been in “tribulation” since Jesus left, and particularly since the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. But leaving that aside, it doesn’t particularly matter what you, I or ICA says about the matter, only scripture. And scripture is very clear. If you would read ICA’s writing on it here: http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/the-revelation-of-jesus-christ-and-the-rapture-of-the-church/ you would see how simple it really is.

    Of course I would say I am not calling God a liar by saying there is no pre-trib rapture–there is but one return of Christ, and that is our blessed hope. If you can demonstrate scripturally that there are two returns, be my guest.

    But it certainly does matter what we believe about the tribulation, because as the fire gets hotter (its pretty hot right now, particularly in the Muslim world), Christians who believe in the pre-trib rapture are going to wonder where their “get out of jail free” card is. That’s more what I’m really concerned about. God is not a God who keeps us from trial and temptation, but is with us when we go through it. Just think of Noah, Job and Daniel, or Paul or Stephen or John or…countless others down through the ages. All victorious in tribulation, but perhaps dying in the effort.

    But back to my question, it was rhetorical, more than anything. I would say a vast majority of, at least western Christians, believe in the “Left Behind” version of events. Those books sold in the millions, after all. Besides the Bible, can you think of any such “post-trib” best seller??

  13. Cocopea
    03/26/2011 at 6:47 PM

    Well, as I said I am a die hard Pre-Tribber, so it’s not a point of debate for me. Thus, I will respond to this last comment then move on. I’m not trying to change anyones point of view.

    I personally will be so happy to not be here during the Trib, as well as happy that I already have eternal life with Jesus. He will appear in the clouds to meet us during the Rapture, and return to earth doing the Second Coming, us with Him. So, yeah I would agree that those that don’t believe in the Rapture would have their “blessed hope” in his Second Coming. I’m sure God knew there would be much debate on this matter, and again since it is not a Salvation issue, He excludes no believer from having hope in Him, in Christ return, or the Rapture.

    Blessings!

  14. ICA
    03/26/2011 at 7:16 PM

    Hi Cocopea, it is not a salvation issue, I agree. We all need to decide for ourselves what position to hold. But no matter what view we hold on any given subject, we should all strive to ensure that it is firmly based in Scripture, and in Scripture only.

    Just one point regarding something you said in the last post. You had mentioned that He meets us in the air on our way up, when in fact it is we who meet Him in the air on His way down:

    1 Thess 4:17, “Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

    The word used for “meet” in 1 Thess 4:16-17 is the Greek word “apantesis”, and this word only occurs here and in three other places. In “Vocabulary of the Greek Testament” by G. Milligan and James Hope Moulton, “The word apantesis seems to have been a kind of official welcome of a newly arriving dignitary – a usage which accords excellently with its NT usage.” And indeed it does. In Matt 25:1,6 it describes the virgins going out to meet the bridegroom, to escort him back into the house. In Acts 28:14-16 it is used to describe brethren from Rome coming out to Appii Foru, to meet Paul and his company, and then escort them back to Rome. In each example of “apantesis”, the escort back is immediate. We don’t have them going out to meet the subject, then going to where the subject came from for days, weeks or years, and then escorting the subject back. That was not the custom. The subject who was coming is met by those who are already at his destination. And what is His destination? Where we are — Earth. We meet Jesus in the air and escort Him back per the “apantesis.” The pre-trib version has changed the intended meaning of this word and makes Jesus the One who does the U-Turn when in fact the text says the opposite.

  15. ICA
    03/26/2011 at 7:42 PM

    Cocopea :

    Well, just for a quick answer, I look at the context in which Paul is speaking to those in Thessaloníki, 2 Thess chapter 2, explaining that the Antichrist cannot be revealed until the Restrainer/Holy Spirit (the Church) is taken away. We are the Church, once we are removed, the AntiChrist will be revealed.

    It sounds good, but that isn’t what the text says unfortunately. Paul says that our gathering to Christ will not happen until the apostasy and the man of sin is revealed first. Here it is broken down to be as concise as possible:

    2 Thess 2:1a,3, “… concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him … that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed …”

    It doesn’t get any easier for us than that. In fact, when speaking about the rapture in 2 Thess 2, Paul uses the word “episynagōgē” (G1997), which is from the word “episynagō” (G1996) — the exact word that Christ used in Matthew 24:31 regarding the gathering of the elect immediately after the tribulation. In explaining the rapture, Paul is in fact referring directly to Christ’s own teaching in the Olivet Discourse and connects the “watching” for the rapture with Jesus’ instructions for His disciples to be watching for His coming “immediately after the tribulation”. In other words, Paul is teaching us that the rapture is post-trib.

  16. Russell
    03/28/2011 at 3:52 PM

    I agree that it is not necessary for the church to experience a pretrib rapture.
    Jesus is the propitiation for all sin (1 John 2:2)and He bore God’s wrath for us. Just as the passover sacrifice was the atonement for the Hebrew people in Egypt, Christ is ours. They were not rapture from the Red Sea they passed through it. This does not mean that Christians will not die in the tribulation because it rains on the just and unjust alike, but it will not be God’s judgment on them. The tribulation saints will make their robes white and overcome by the blood of the Lamb.

    The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry provides a good definition for Christs finished work.

    Propitiation

    This means the turning away of wrath by an offering. It is similar to expiation but expiation does not carry the nuances involving wrath. For the Christian the propitiation was the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It turned away the wrath of God so that He could pass “over the sins previously committed,” (Rom. 3:25). It was the Father who sent the Son to be the propitiation (1 John 4:10) for all (1 John 2:2).

    http://carm.org/dictionary-propitiation

  17. 04/02/2011 at 10:45 PM

    Mitchell I continue to enjoy your site – still trying to find my way around it a bit – not sure how to contact you other than through this comments way – – I think that I have proven at least to myself that the 70 sevens are also 70 Jubilees of time on this Jubilee calendar of Gods – I think that this is why God wrote this prophecy in the way he did 7×7 – 7 x 62 and 1 x7 ?? The prophecy does say that this was the time Decreed for Daniels people

    Seven sevens (350 years)(7 Jubillees) from the time that the Jews entered Canaan to when they rejected God as king for an earthly king Saul – and that sixty two sevens (Jubilees) to 1967 when they reclaimed temple mount and the last one seven (Jubillee) that we are now living in which will end in 2016 or 2017 – what are your thought on this idea ??

  18. ICA
    04/03/2011 at 1:40 AM

    Hi Willard, well it’s an interesting thought and I am not able to say with certainty that the 70 sevens are Jubilee years. In my view, at the very least they need to be 70 sabbaticals because Dan 9:25a is clear to me “That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks,” which needs to point to Christ’s first coming. If the 70 weeks are Jubilees as well then the prophecy must be dual so that it also points to Messiah’s second coming. The question is — when did the Jews enter Canaan? I would also be inclined to use 360-day prophetic years, not Gregorian years.

  19. 04/04/2011 at 10:34 PM

    This is how I see it fits and how I arrived at these conclusions but the day the Jews entered the land I agree is debatable. I am trying to use the bible for the numbers and let them speak for themselves.
    The year 606 BC when Babylon is agreed by most scholars – using biblical years we know that the Jews went into their 70 year captivity for failing to keep 490 years of Sabbaths 606 + 490 = 1089 BC It is my understanding that when they rejected God as their king and demanded a earthly king this is when they began to fail in keeping the seven year Sabbaths because of the cost now to maintain a king ?? So Saul would have become king in 1089 BC which many also agree to be feasible.
    1 Kings 6:1 tell us two date 1) that Solomon laid the temple foundation in his fourth year of reign and 2) that it was 480 years from the Exodus. We know that Saul reigned 40 years Acts 31:21 and David reigned 40.5 years so 40 plus 40.5 plus 4 into Solomon’s reign we can that deduct that the foundation was laid in the year 1089 – 84.5 = 1004 BC
    As noted the foundation of the temple was laid 480 years from the Exodus which puts the Exodus at 1484 BC. So minus 40 would make it year 1444 BC when Israel entered the land. So from 1444 BC to 1089 BC when Israel rejected God as their king because they wanted an earthly king this equals 355 biblical years or 350 solar years which divide by 50 = 7 Jubilees.
    1967 when temple mount was reclaimed was a Jubilee year add to this 1089 years BC we than have 3056 solar years or 3100 biblical years, divide this by 50 for the Jubilee we have 62 Jubilees.
    So the picture is and why Daniel wrote this like this is that we have the first set of seven sevens from when they entered the land to when they rejected God as their king, and than the sixty two sevens from when the rejected God as their king to when the reclaimed temple mount in biblical years. We are now in the last seven which will be completed in 2016 or 2017.
    Daniel is clear when he make statement one – Seventy ‘sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, there is a comma behind this statement so I see this as one statement. Seventy sevens are DECREE FOR YOUR PEOPLE indicates to me a long period of time certainly more than 490 years. This is also why I see Dan 12:7 time line of – a time, times and a half time as 3500 years or 70 Jubilees which will end when the power of the holy people will be broken. Meaning when the Jews finally recognize Christ and understand that relying on their own power has been broken and hence forth it will be Christ’s power that they will depend or rely on.

    Da 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed

  20. Kurt J.
    04/05/2011 at 12:37 AM

    Interesting Willard. Did you come up with that yourself? I’m curious as to who else might be advocating that view.

    In the Bible both solar and lunar years are in use; a solar year must have been used to calculate a Sabbath year; does anyone think otherwise? Where does the term “prophetic year” come from, or is referenced, other than comparing 1260 days with “a time, times and half a time”? No energy right now to dig into it myself, but maybe soon I’ll answer my own question.

  21. 04/05/2011 at 5:06 AM

    As far as I know no one else has come up with this idea – I have been trying to find the answer to the question for many years why did Daniel write this prophecy the way he did 7 x 7 – 62 x 7 and 1 x 7 – the answer I came to conclude is as above – by a prophetic year I mean a 360 day biblical year

  22. 04/05/2011 at 5:19 AM

    Kurt – I have to make a correction – it was prayer answered I did not mean to indicate that I came up with this on my own without giving credir were credit is due which is to take any or steal credit from My God and my Lord for any of his work or his input that he had in this conclusion – I believe if coreect it was prayer answered Gods doing and not mine alone

  23. Kurt J.
    04/05/2011 at 10:25 AM

    Very creative, Willard.

    Have you gotten into the whole Jubilee Year argument? I guess there’s serious people on both sides, one saying its the 49th year, the other, the 50th. That would have an effect on this theory, obviously.

  24. ICA
    04/05/2011 at 12:46 PM

    Willard, fyi, looks like http://www.markbeast.com also supports the 70 Jubilees view. They have it ending in the fall of 2015, however (Yom Kippur / Day of Atonement).

  25. Kurt J.
    04/05/2011 at 3:09 PM

    As you know, that’s the same time we came up with using that Temple Alignment theory over on the JT board based on eclipses and lunar/solar angles relative to Mt. Olives/Temple Mt.

  26. ICA
    04/05/2011 at 5:03 PM

    Yep, I recall that.

  27. 04/05/2011 at 5:04 PM

    I have seen The Mark of the Beast web site after I began my search – they believe a Jubilee is 49 years I believe that it is 50 which fits my ideas but there are arguments for both – even the Jews argue this amongst themseleves I am told ?? Lev 25 tells us that it is every 50th year the land id to lie fallow 2 full years and there will be enough seed left over and to eat into the third year of planting – I take this at face value.

    I believe my theory is the correct one but it is a theory – another strong supporting piece of evidence that supports my thoughts is that king David ruled 40.5 years – from the beginning of Christs ministery in approx 28 AD to 2017 is also just short of 40.5 Jubilees (40.4 Jubilees)in biblical 360 day years. Jesus was the son of David ???

  28. 04/13/2011 at 1:57 PM

  29. Kurt J.
    04/13/2011 at 3:31 PM

    Willard,

    Your linked video is currently how I see things–its accurate, as far as I understand the facts. The historical view of Revelation, i.e., that it began being fulfilled immediately after it was written, does not negate the view (IMO) that the nations around Israel will gather together in the final hours of this age and try to retake Jerusalem, to be stopped by the returning Yeshua, who just prior raptures his ekklesia who meet him in the air.

    I’m in process of helping ICA see this truth (wink, wink!). Meanwhile, he is also trying his best to convince me. I do waver back and forth. ICA is like a sledgehammer, a tsunami, unrelenting. Whatever happens, every day we’re one day closer.

    Kurt

  30. ICA
    04/13/2011 at 11:20 PM

    Ah, yes, we’ve had many-o-discussions on the subject. But as you know, I see the historical view as being on the right road, just the wrong lane. :) Rome, Italy and Europe (Roman Catholicism) is not the epicenter of the prophetic texts. Jerusalem, Israel and the Middle East (Radical Islam) is. I certainly agree with the video however with respect to the origins of pretribulationism. Most Christians are still unaware of how and when it all began. A lot of ‘things’ took root in the 19th century …

  31. Kurt J.
    04/14/2011 at 12:47 AM

    To continue the metaphor, I find myself at times unable to decide what lane to drive in, so I just drive centered on the dashed line between the two lanes. Sometimes I see a road sign, or maybe road kill, that makes me swerve into the other lane. I haven’t been tempted however to exit the highway–I’m convinced its going in the right direction.

    And it won’t be long before the answer to “are we there yet?” is YES.

  32. ICA
    04/14/2011 at 12:50 AM

    Thank goodness there’s an exit ramp up ahead just before the road runs out ;)

  33. 04/14/2011 at 11:16 AM

    The more I read on the coming of the Lord in places especially like I Thess 5:9 which is used to defend a Rapture the more clear it becomes that this has been taken out of context. We need to back up a bit to truly understand what Paul is saying in 5:9 and what he is meaning by THE COMING OF THE LORD – I Thess 4:15 tells us that we who are alive or left until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep which I understand as those who have died before us – the answer is in the question “if we the living do not precede the dead we must be raised up together” if there is a Rapture that is to remove the righteous why would the dead also have to be raised at the same time ? HOW can the wrath of the A/C hurt the dead that died in Christ. The answer is he cannot so Paul must be telling us that there is one visible coming of Christ. The second coming is not a secret coming called the Rapture but just like Rev 1:7 says on the clouds and every eye will see him. A rapture would make what we understand as the Second Coming actually a third coming.

    Verse 16 and 17 further appears to defend this in telling us that “ at the trumpet call of God which I would understand as likely being the 7th trumpet ?? THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST and than we who are alive will also be caught up with them (the dead) – again the dead in Christ cannot or would not suffer through the reign of the A/C so why would they be raised in a Rapture?

    The Coming of the Lord

    1Th 4:15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever

    1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Th 5:10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him

    A careful reading on 5:9 speaks for itself I think – “For God did not appoint us to suffer Wrath – WHY !!! – “to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” – to me this speaks of a time when we will receive a reward for our faithfulness not removed from an earthly wrath of an A/C

    This is what I Thess 4 and 5 seems to telling me anyway – 5:23 seems to add to this line of thought that we should live our life so that we are found blameless at the Lord’s coming which again seems to point to a time of judgment to come.

    1Th 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

  34. Kurt J.
    04/14/2011 at 12:47 PM

    You’ve got it, Willard. Exactly right.

  35. Atomic Glue
    04/25/2011 at 2:06 PM

    Hey Gang,
    Very fasinating topic. I tend to lean more on the pre-trib rapture.
    The Post-trib view really doesn’t give Christians hope. If you look deep into traditional Jewish weddings from Biblical times you would see an amazing picture of what is to come for believers of today. http://bridalcovenant.com/wedding1.html
    Also, we as believers do not know when the rapture is to take place. A Pre-trib view is the only viable answer to that truth. If I were a believer of a Post-trib rapture, I could simply count the days or months and know when the end of the seven years of judgment will happen, therefore, know when the rapture will take place.
    One more thought. Jesus gives two examples of end times signs. End times will be like the days of Noah and the days of Lot. In both examples, both Noah and Lot are taken out of danger before God’s judgement takes place.
    I would make reference to a pastor in Oregon, named Jon Courson. From Applegate Christian Fellowship. His teachings on the book of Revelation is wonderful and super informative.
    Grace and Peace to you.

  36. ICA
    04/25/2011 at 2:26 PM

    Atomic Glue :

    Hey Gang,
    Very fasinating topic. I tend to lean more on the pre-trib rapture.
    The Post-trib view really doesn’t give Christians hope. If you look deep into traditional Jewish weddings from Biblical times you would see an amazing picture of what is to come for believers of today. http://bridalcovenant.com/wedding1.html

    Hi Atomic Glue, thank you for your comments. A couple of questions though – how does Christ’s deliverance after the Tribulation not give Christians hope? How does cutting the days short for the sake of the elect not give Christians hope? How is being received unto Christ to be with Him forever at His return not give Christians hope? How does the Blessed Hope of eternal life not give Christian’s hope? Is our hope in the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture, or in Christ alone?

    Atomic Glue :Also, we as believers do not know when the rapture is to take place. A Pre-trib view is the only viable answer to that truth. If I were a believer of a Post-trib rapture, I could simply count the days or months and know when the end of the seven years of judgment will happen, therefore, know when the rapture will take place.

    If “we as believers do not know when the rapture is to take place” then why did Jesus imply that we could know in Revelation 3:3? Jesus says here, “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”

    This statement by Jesus is often overlooked, but it uses the exact same language as verses that many use to state that we can never know (Matt. 24:36; 25:13; Mark 13:32) and reveals something that is very significant and profound: IF we do not watch He WILL come upon us as a thief and we WILL NOT know what hour He will come upon us. If this verse is true, then the inverse must also be true: If we DO watch, He WILL NOT come upon us as a thief, and we WILL know. If this is correct, and if we watch and can know, then some of the pop-theology positions we’ve held have a bit of a problem from a textual and theological standpoint.

    Christ’s words in Revelation 3:3 are true just as His words anywhere else in Scripture. So, how could Jesus say that we could never know the day or the hour of His return and then imply that we could know in Revelation 3:3? Scripture cannot contradict Scripture so either one of the verses is wrong (which is not possible), or our understanding is wrong somewhere. It’s not hard to figure out which one it is.

    As with all Scripture we must maintain context, context, context. If we look closely and read Matt 24:36 in its proper context we realize that Jesus does *not* say anywhere in this verse, nor in the context of Matthew 24 or elsewhere, that we can not know and that we will never know. Jesus is merely saying, in the present tense per the Greek, that we do not know right now when He will return. We do not know today. A few verses later in Matthew 24:42 Jesus tells us to WATCH for the signs that He just gave us. Why watch? Watch so that we CAN KNOW, because today we do not know the day or hour of His return. This is exactly what Jesus was referring to in Revelation 3:3, and it is also the exact same thing that Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5, telling us that the Day of the Lord is our gathering (rapture) unto Christ, and that that day – the Day of the Lord – will NOT overtake us as a thief IF WE WATCH. Watch for what? Exactly what Jesus told us: “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)” (Matt 24:15).

    Atomic Glue :
    One more thought. Jesus gives two examples of end times signs. End times will be like the days of Noah and the days of Lot. In both examples, both Noah and Lot are taken out of danger before God’s judgement takes place.

    Noah and Lot were both protected by God during His judgment of the wicked. They were not removed from the earth. It is the wicked that are removed, not the righteous.

    Matthew 13:30, “Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'”

    From the whole of Scripture, the gathering is not pre-tribulational. Revelation 10 itself even proves it – see here and let me know your thoughts.

    Blessings!

    • Atom Glue
      04/28/2011 at 4:15 PM

      Hey Gang,
      Thanks for the replies. Really encouraging to see such passion on this subject.
      There’s a lot to cover here and I have just a little time to type this out.
      Mostly I just want to refer to 1 Thess 4:18. “Therefore, comfort one another with these words.”
      It’s no comfort for me to say to you, “You know, we’re going to go through 7 years of terrible tribulation and judgement and THEN get caught up to heaven.” It’s more of a comfort for me to say “Before the tribulation, We’re going to be safely tucked away for a seven year honeymoon in heaven…”
      Let me also be clear that this discussion is non-essential concerning salvation. It does not matter who is wrong or who is right when it comes to the rapture. We are all saved by grace through Jesus Christ!
      Let me again refer to my old pastor who taught on this subject very well and in great detail. http://www.joncourson.com/
      Peace of Christ to you,
      John

  37. 04/25/2011 at 5:11 PM

    Welcome Atomic Glue – Just to add a comment regards Noah and LOt – God warned Noah 120 years prior to the flood and God also told both Abraham and Lot what he was going to do before his judgment came – and like you also commented both were protected from the danger by being removed from the danger but they were not removed or raptured from the earth _ Isaaih 29: 5a to 6 tells us

    ……….Suddenly,in an instant, Isa 29:6 the LORD Almighty will come with thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest and flames of a devouring fire

  38. ICA
    04/28/2011 at 5:52 PM

    Atom Glue :

    Hey Gang,
    Thanks for the replies. Really encouraging to see such passion on this subject.
    There’s a lot to cover here and I have just a little time to type this out.
    Mostly I just want to refer to 1 Thess 4:18. “Therefore, comfort one another with these words.”
    It’s no comfort for me to say to you, “You know, we’re going to go through 7 years of terrible tribulation and judgement and THEN get caught up to heaven.” It’s more of a comfort for me to say “Before the tribulation, We’re going to be safely tucked away for a seven year honeymoon in heaven…”
    Let me also be clear that this discussion is non-essential concerning salvation. It does not matter who is wrong or who is right when it comes to the rapture. We are all saved by grace through Jesus Christ!

    Hi brother! When Paul said to “Therefore comfort one another with these words” he was referring to the fact that those who have died in Christ will be raised back to life in the Resurrection. His words of comfort were for those that would grieve and sorrow at the loss of a loved one or a fellow member of the Body:

    1 Thess 4:13-14, “But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep [died], lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.”

    Moreover, it would also be at this exact time that those of us who are alive and remain (the Greek word for “remain” is perileipomai and it means to survive) would be caught up with them. In fact, Paul is clear that we will not precede those who have died in Christ:

    1 Thess 4:15-17, “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

    Paul is very careful to show us that the dead in Christ are resurrected first, and then we are caught up with them. The next question we should then ask is when does this resurrection happen? John tells us in Revelation:

    Revelation 20:4-5, “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years… This [is] the first resurrection.”

    The dead in Christ that rise first are caught up in the First Resurrection, which is after the tribulation according to John in Rev 20:4-5. If the First Resurrection is after the tribulation then there can be no resurrection before the tribulation, and if there is no resurrection before the tribulation then there is therefore no rapture before the tribulation. It is impossible. According to Scripture, the rapture can only happen after tribulation.

    The only way for pre-trib teachers to get around this dilemma is to somehow contend that there are “phases” to the First Resurrection, but when we draw that suggestion out to its logical conclusion it is essentially stating that the rapture takes place before the First Resurrection is even fully completed, yet Scripture is clear that the dead in Christ rise FIRST, and THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up. According to Revelation 20:4 there are obviously still those who are dead in Christ at the end of the tribulation who will be raised in the First Resurrection.

    Paul does not state, at any point, that our comfort is a pre-trib rapture. His words were to comfort those who grieved for they who have died by reminding them that just as we fall asleep in bed to later awaken when the sun rises, the dead who have “fallen asleep” in Christ will also “awaken” when the Son descends, and will all come back with Him. The idea of a pre-trib rapture is forced in the text, when it is nowhere in the text at all.

    Atom Glue :
    Let me again refer to my old pastor who taught on this subject very well and in great detail. http://www.joncourson.com/
    Peace of Christ to you,
    John

    And I think that this is part of the problem for many. All too often we’ve come to rely too much on pastors who teach only what our ears wish to hear, but not enough on Scripture and what the Word has to say. Like you said, this is a non-essential doctrine, but an important one for many nonetheless, so I encourage you to test these things in light on Scripture, and Scripture only.

    Blessings…

  39. Kurt J.
    04/28/2011 at 9:33 PM

    There are many wonderful things about Jon Courson–his church, Applegate Fellowship, is an awesome place. My youngest son wanted to get baptised when we were at one of their outdoor summer meetings two Summers ago. He was baptised by Jon’s son, I think his name was Ben, in their outdoor baptismal in front of a couple thousand people. Jon’s wife, Ben’s mom, mailed us photos she took of Patrick getting dunked.

    But, on the tribulation, the rapture and dispensationalism, Jon follows the basic formula that all Calvary Chapel affiliated churches follow…7 year trib, pre-trib rapture, and separation of OT Israel and Church. These are not biblical, as ICA has demonstrated…check out some of his other articles. These were not believed in the church until just under 200 years ago.

    Besides this area, there is much that is right with Calvary Chapel. I love their emphasis on the word, especially the verse by verse teaching.

  40. 04/30/2011 at 1:19 PM

    ICA – your thoughts ??

    May not exactly fit here but reading about the 1000 years this am a thought occured to me and I want to get it out there because it also seems to relate or connect to the seventy sevens from another perspective

    Isreal went into captivity for 70 years because it failed 490 years of sabbaths this equals 70 >< 1000 = 7

    Both of these have the same formula of 7 times

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