Home > Theology and Eschatology > Where is America in Bible Prophecy?

Where is America in Bible Prophecy?


By Walid Shoebat – “For many years, it has been taught that in the Last-Days literally every nation of the earth – including the United States – will be utterly dominated by the Antichrist; there will be no place to escape from the dreaded Mark of the Beast; every last nation of the world will come against Jerusalem. Zechariah 12 is usually used to validate the theory, as is the Apostle John. After all, the Antichrist will be given ‘authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation,’ (Revelation 13:7).

This would seem like an ironclad case for the Antichrist ruling the globe, including the United States, which he uses in his march against Jerusalem. It is this dilemma that caused many to believe that the United States will be taken over by Antichrist.

Before we attempt to solve this issue, it is necessary to clarify the dilemma. For this, we can ask a Jesus-style question: does the usage of the phrase, ‘the whole earth’ and ‘every tribe, tongue and nation’ in the Bible mean ‘the entire globe’? If so, then did Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4:1 send his letter to every nation, tribe and tongue in the ‘entire globe’?

‘Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.’ (Daniel 4:1)

‘O king, the Most High God gave your father Nebuchadnezzar sovereignty and greatness and glory and splendor. Because of the high position he gave him, all the peoples and nations and men of every language dreaded and feared him,’ (Daniel 5:18, 19).

How about…

‘Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom,’ (I Kings 4:34)

Did anyone visit Solomon from China?

How about…

‘Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt,’ (2 Kings 17:29).

Did the inhabitants of every last nation of the earth have Samaritan gods in their homes?

How about…

‘the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries.’ Isaiah 37:18

Did King Sennacherib of Assyria actually destroy all nations on the face of the earth?

How about…

‘As I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth,’ (Daniel 8:5).

Did Alexander the Great occupy the whole earth?

So then, let us offer a new perspective regarding the end-times verses:

Zechariah 14:2 ‘For I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem for battle’
Matthew 25:32 ‘I will also gather all nations’
Joel 3:2 ‘I will gather all nations’

Such verses should not be isolated. In context, Zechariah 12 only encompasses the surrounding nations:

‘I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves,’ (Zechariah 12:2-3).

In Joel 3:12 we find the same:

‘Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.’

‘The surrounding peoples’ and ‘all the nations of the earth’ are two references pertaining to the same people; ‘all the nations’ and ‘the earth’ is not the entire globe, though the translation may seem to allude to it as such. The problem is that the translation at times makes it difficult since – in English – ‘the earth’ tends to mean ‘the entire globe’ and in Hebrew the word ‘Eretz’ commonly means ‘the land’ and not ‘the entire globe.’

Then we have the culture. In ancient Hebrew, we find a grammatical construct that makes emphatic statements in order to convey a point, whereas using hyperbole is extremely common in eastern cultures. Elaborating on the exceptions would entirely blunt the impact of the statement. For instance, imagine a speed limit sign that listed the exceptions painted on it, ‘speed limit 55—except ambulances, fire trucks, police giving chase, etc.’ Thus, exceptions cannot be ruled out on the basis of exclusive language. This type of language is actually found quite frequently in the Bible. Throughout the prophecies of end-times the Bible is speaking of a regional war and not global (Ezekiel 36:4, 5, Psalm 79:12, Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 28-32).

One common argument I always get is an objection that ‘the earth’ is meant to be ‘the known world,’ that today’s ‘known world’ must then encompass the entire globe. This assumption is false since all ‘Four Beasts’ in Daniel chapter 7 arise out of ‘the Great Sea’ (Daniel 7:2). ‘The Great Sea’ is the Mediterranean region, not the entire globe. That with all the literal nations of end-times encompasses only the Middle East and Asia Minor. If the first beast (Babylon), second beast (Medo-Persia) and third beast (Greece) all were out within the ‘Great Sea’ (Mediterranean) then the fourth beast of Daniel 7 could only pertain to the Mediterranean Sea as well.

To make the Antichrist rule a global one, many western interpreters today allegorize ‘The Great Sea’ as ‘the sea of humanity.’ In so doing, we lose the meaning and the intent of the prophecy. This reference to ‘The Great Sea’ cannot be an allegory pertaining to the ‘sea of humanity’ since every verse in the Bible refers to ‘The Great Sea’ as the Mediterranean Sea (see Num 34:6-7, Jos 1:4, Jos 9:1, Jos 15:12, Jos 15:47, Jos 23:4, Ezek 47:10, 15, 19, 20, Ezek 48: 28).

The Bible makes every effort to clarify that the nations surrounding Israel are the ones to which it is referring:

‘And render unto our neighbors sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord,’ (Psalm 79:12).

Do Israel’s ‘neighbors’ include The United States? No. This is confirmed in many places in the Bible:

‘Thus Says Jehovah against all mine evil neighbors that touch the inheritance which I have caused my people Israel to inherit,’ (Jeremiah 12:14). The neighbors are all Muslim.

In the Bible, Antichrist ‘will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it’ (Daniel 7: 23), yet several prophecies state that Antichrist will be confronted and will not take over the globe (Daniel 11:40-45, Daniel 11:30, Ezekiel 28:7-8).

So where is the United States in the Bible? How many ever think about this, that perhaps in the end, the United States is mentioned fighting against the Antichrist. Daniel 11 tells us that Antichrist ‘acts against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory’ (Daniel 11:39).

Who are these ‘strongest fortresses’ [the strongest military might]’? How could the Antichrist rule the entire globe if we have strongest fortresses that fight against him? Does he truly defeat these strongest fortresses? Does he defeat the United States? Does he rule the entire globe?

The answer to this is ‘No.’

Why then do so many modern Western prophecy analysts insist that Antichrist hold the most powerful military might in the world? Which nations hold the strongest military might? Is it not the United States?

The text regarding end-times is clearly portraying what we see in Islam today. Even when we read that he declares war ‘against the strongest fortresses.’ What could that mean except what it plainly says—to declare war against the most powerful nations on earth? Jihadists already declared war on Europe and the U.S. And now with the Arab Spring clearly becoming an Islamic storm, we see that what we have said to you years ago in advance; everything is happening in accordance to a plan.

However, the West today seems oblivious to this fact. Who else could be as maniacal as Muslim fundamentalists to declare war on the powerful West? Who else is deceiving the West with false peace saying that ‘Islam is a peaceful religion’? And it is all for the purpose of advancing their god, Allah.

This is exactly what we see today.

The position that every nation will fall to Antichrist is impossible since the Bible clearly states that some will even resist the Antichrist and even defeat him. The verses are rarely discussed. In Ezekiel 28, it even confirms that the most powerful nations (strongest fortresses) on earth will annihilate the Antichrist:

‘Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas.’ (Ezekiel 28:7-8)

‘They’ pertains to these powerful nations and the term ‘terrible’ implies to being ‘terrible in battle,’ ‘most powerful,’ ‘strongest fortresses.’ God will rise up several nations who will carry out His judgment and attack the Antichrist in the end. Therefore, it cannot be true that every nation of the globe will fall to the Antichrist and attack Israel. There have always been attempts to establish a One-World Government, yet they have never succeeded; far too many in the West fail to remember that God divided the nations after the Tower of Babel to never allow them to be one; even in the Millennium we will still have nations separated. This promise is as the rainbow for Noah.

Too many today read the Bible narcissistically. Many books have been written that place the West at the center of prophecy and interpret history through a Western-centric lens. Far too many Westerners have missed the obvious fact that the Bible is thoroughly Middle Eastern. In the Biblical worldview, Jerusalem is the center of the earth, not Europe or America. The biblical prophecies about the End-Times are no different.

End-Times Today is a complete study of Bible Prophecy that will ensure a proper perspective on end-times.” Source – Walid Shoebat.

Related: The Mark of the Beast – What Your Church May Not Be Telling You – “… The Babylonian Empire encompassed areas of Saudi Arabia (the birthplace and spiritual homestead of Islam) to the south, to parts of Asia Minor (Turkey) in the north, and from Egypt in the west to Persia (Iran) in the east. This area is today the epicenter of Islam. Additionally, one intriguing aspect to the ‘curse’ [of Zechariah 5:3] that goes out over the whole land is that the word for ‘curse’, and even how it is pronounced, is the Hebrew word ‘alah’. The Prophet Isaiah, in describing the condition of the earth at the time leading up to the Second Coming of Messiah, says that ‘the curse [alah] has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate’ (Isa 24:6). To dwell in the earth does not in and of itself make one ‘desolate’. But the same cannot be said for those who dwell in the ‘curse.’” Read more.

  1. iamnotashamedofthegospelofchrist
    04/19/2012 at 8:31 AM

    I like Walid Shoebat because it is refreshing to hear prophecy from someone who has lived the language, although I don’t always agree with everything he say’s, this is very true. I’ve often asked many who deny persecution of Christians among other things as actually taking place, Do you think just because it’s not happening right here in the us that it’s not happening like the prophets foretold? I usually get the deer in the headlight look.

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  2. ICA
    04/19/2012 at 2:03 PM

    If it is out of sight, then it is out of mind. That is the unfortunate truth when it comes to many Western Christians. Churches should be providing weekly updates to their congregations on the plight of our persecuted brothers and sisters all throughout the world who are being beheaded, blown up, shot, stabbed, raped, mutilated, tortured, imprisoned, denied employment and freedom, etc. etc. etc. But if the truth were shared every Sunday then many would begin questioning the sacred Western doctrine of a pre-trib rapture. While many are asleep, so many others in their daily struggle for survival long for the one and only return of our King and Deliverer …

    Yearning for the future of a promise long foretold
    Evening in that day shall be light
    Suddenly the sky, in a moment, shall be rolled
    Heaven’s final answer to the Chosen’s end of plight
    Unity has come and the sun and stars decline
    Angels will assemble as I look up and rejoice
    Revealed in wondrous glory appears the final sign
    Every eye shall see Him, all shall hear His voice
    Terror strikes the wicked as their hearts begin to fail
    Unrepented wickedness revealed
    Righteous indignation in fire, blood and hail
    Nothing will be hidden or concealed

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  3. iamnotashamedofthegospelofchrist
    04/19/2012 at 4:26 PM

    Oh, you hit the nail right on the head!!!! Amen! May I copy this for a Bible Study?

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  4. ICA
    04/19/2012 at 4:29 PM

    Yes, use anything you like. God bless …

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  5. 04/19/2012 at 10:45 PM

    The short reply to Shoebat’s view is found in Rev 13:7. This verse states that the “saints will be overcome” by the 1st beast. The same prophecy is found in Dan 7:25. “he will wear down the saints of the Highest One.” The “saints” are Christians. We know that because Rev 13:8 states that “everyone will worship him except those whose names have been recorded in the Lamb’s book of life…” If the “whole world” applies only to the Middle East how can the passage have any real meaning? Christians have been almost non-exsitent in the Middle East since the fall of Constantinople n 1453. The US is the most Christian-populated nation in the world. If the US is not being included, who is? Plus, why does Shoebat assume that the prophecies are speaking of military dominion? The US is far more likely to fail economically, first, not miltarily. The oil of the Middle East is a weapon of great consequence to the economies of the West. This weapon is so great that Americans would bow to Allah in a heart beat if it meant the loss of their standard of living. This is what will drive “nominal Christians” to apostasize (2 Thess 2;3). Rev 13:17 states that only those wo have the “mark of the beast” will be able to buy or sell. The mark of the beast is the mark of conversion to the religion of the beast, i.e, Islam. In order to interact in society, i.e., buy or sell, people will convert. Some Christians will apsotasize. Others will not. Those who do not will be killed or be threatened with death. Again — if we are talking only about Christians in the Middle East, the passage has little meaning because the Middle East is already Muslim!

    To include the US in the dominion of the 1st beast, Allah, is not a “Westernized” version, in my view, but a Biblical view. Jerusalem is still the center of the world; the US is just one of the many nations of the world whose destiny will be determinded by what happens in the center of the world, Jerusalem, not in Washington. With the weakness so present in Washington these days, do we really think that a world economic crisis precipitated by Middle East petroleum removed from the world markets will not cause our leaders to give whatever is demanded to “save the people.”

    I hope Shoebat is right; but I cannot imagine that Christians in American will not be subject to the same perils as Christians in the Middle East since the time of Muhuammad.

    Respectfully my brother —
    Jack Smith

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  6. ICA
    04/20/2012 at 1:18 AM

    Jack Smith, “If the ‘whole world’ applies only to the Middle East how can the passage have any real meaning?”

    Hi brother, given the fact that prophecy is very Middle Eastern and Israel-centric, and that there are obviously resistor nations that wage war against Antichrist, it only stands to reason that John’s expression here is synecdochical. Not only does the whole of Scripture give us numerous clues pointing us to an understanding that the scope of Antichrist’s rule will be limited, even the words chosen by the authors — under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit — allow such a meaning. For instance, in Revelation 13:8 John used the word “gē”, which need not only mean the entire literal planet. It also means “a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region” as well. I would contend that if the Spirit’s intent were to be over the whole literal globe, John would have likely been inspired to use a much better word such as “kosmos” (cf Acts 17:24) to convey such a meaning.

    We see many examples of this figure of speech elsewhere. Here are a few that are quite obvious:

    Luke 2:1-3, “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.”

    Mark 1:5, “And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”

    Daniel 2:36-38, “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.”

    Ezra 1:2, “Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD Elohim of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth;”

    Romans 10:18, “But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”

    Using a bit of common sense we already know the answers to the following questions, but in light of the verses above let’s ask the obvious: Did Caesar literally tax the whole world? Did every last man, woman and child in Judea and Jerusalem get baptized in the Jordan River? Did Nebuchadnezzar or Cyrus literally rule over the entire earth, ruling over the native Indians in North and South America? Was the Gospel preached to the whole literal earth during the lives of the disciples? We know that the answer to each of these questions is no. The verses above are obvious example of a synecdoche, an expression that uses a part for the whole, or the whole for a part. It’s like saying “the whole world watched the Super Bowl on Sunday” and is obviously not meant to be taken literally. Likewise, we often see this expression in Scripture, especially when we read about kings and their kingdoms, and the end-of-days leader identified as Antichrist is no different.

    Jack Smith, “Christians have been almost non-exsitent in the Middle East since the fall of Constantinople n 1453.”

    There are millions upon millions of Christians in Muslim-dominated countries throughout North Africa and the Middle East. In Egypt alone there are at least an estimated 10 million Christians (Coptic sources say closer to 16 million). There are over a million Christians in Lebanon, over one million in Syria, millions more reside in other Islamic nations as well from the west coast of Africa to the eastern shores of Indonesia. And these are the ones that we know about. Although the percentage of Christians is tiny compared to what it once was, their numbers are far from non-existent, otherwise the genocide that we’re seeing now wouldn’t be “necessary” in the eyes of Islamic extremists. If the persecution we’re now seeing continues to spread and increase, however, the Christian population may become “non-existent”. But Christ will return and put an end to the killing before it does (Matt 24:22).

    Jack Smith, “The mark of the beast is the mark of conversion to the religion of the beast, i.e, Islam. In order to interact in society, i.e., buy or sell, people will convert. Some Christians will apsotasize. Others will not. Those who do not will be killed or be threatened with death. Again — if we are talking only about Christians in the Middle East, the passage has little meaning because the Middle East is already Muslim!”

    As we can see from my previous response, Muslim-dominated does not mean exclusively Muslim. To address your point specifically, consider the fact that in Egypt right now “Christians are being violently killed under the eyes of the international media. Also, for the first time in many years, churches are being systematically burned and destroyed. The police are taking no action and nobody is punished for it… Problems are also experienced in day-to-day life because calls are often made in the media not to buy from Christian merchants or to sell anything to Christians. Businessmen are therefore faced with a struggle for economic survival. Christians are indirectly excluded from employment, for example by job advertisements specifying ‘a female employee with headscarf’” (Read more). Or in Iraq, for instance, where Muslims are destroying Christian businesses and leaving notices stating that “If anyone decides to reopen his store, we will kill him” (Read more). I’m sure you would agree brother — the Mark of the Beast is alive and well and, as we can see, is being enforced in increasing measure right now as we speak.

    Jack Smith, “The US is the most Christian-populated nation in the world.”

    How many of us who claim to be Christian in the West would remain Christian if we experienced the type of persecution that so many are experiencing right now in Muslim-dominated nations? Some Christians over here can’t even remain faithful to Christ if they get a snide yet otherwise benign comment about Christianity. There are many Christians here who would die for Christ in a heartbeat and remain in Him no matter what, but there are many who wouldn’t. And I agree with you that many “Americans would bow to Allah in a heart beat” if their life or something as simple as their standard of living was threatened. Many in the media and government are already doing this today without even bending their knees. Sad, but true.

    Jack Smith, “This is what will drive ‘nominal Christians’ to apostasize (2 Thess 2;3).”

    Judging from the condition of many Western churches today, they already have. Churches embracing Islam, embracing “Word of Faith” teachers, embracing liberal theologies, embracing alternative lifestyles, etc. Even the President himself attended an apostate church for some 20 years. The list doesn’t stop there …

    Jack Smith, “To include the US in the dominion of the 1st beast, Allah, is not a ‘Westernized’ version, in my view, but a Biblical view.”

    I’ve added this to the Mark of the Beast article recently, but I’ll share it in my reply as well because I believe there is a clue that reveals why it does not include the United States.

    In chapter 5 of the book of Zechariah we read about a vision that Zechariah was given of a flying scroll and a “wicked woman”. An angel tells Zechariah that “This is the curse that goes out over the face of the whole earth” at the appointed time (5:3,11 NKJV). The Prophet Zechariah then writes that “the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, ‘Look up and see what this is that is appearing.’ I asked, ‘What is it?’ He replied, ‘It is a measuring basket.’ And he added, ‘This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land.’ Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman” (Zech 5:5-7). Zechariah continues, “He said, ‘This is wickedness,’ and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed the lead cover down over its mouth. Then I looked up–and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth. ‘Where are they taking the basket?’ I asked the angel who was speaking to me. He replied, ‘To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When it is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.’” (Zech 5:8-11).

    Notice what Zechariah says here. The “curse” is set in the land of Babylonia. The Hebrew word for “earth” in Zech 5:3 (erets) is thus best understood to be the entire region, not the whole literal world. The Babylonian Empire encompassed areas of Saudi Arabia (the birthplace and spiritual homestead of Islam) to the south, to parts of Asia Minor (Turkey) in the north, and from Egypt in the west to Persia (Iran) in the east. This area is today the epicenter of Islam.

    The most intriguing aspect to the “curse” that goes out over the whole land is that the word for “curse”, and specifically how it is pronounced, is the Hebrew word “alah”. The curse of “alah” is set up in the land of Babylon and goes out over the face of the whole region.

    There should be little doubt that the “woman” of Zechariah 5 that would have a house built for it in Babylon directly represents the “Whore of Babylon”. Over 600 years after Zechariah’s vision of the end times, John in Revelation 17 is given a vision of the future and of “the great harlot who sits on many waters … And on her forehead a name [was] written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.” (17:1,5-6).

    So who is the “woman”? I believe that it is the Islamic “Ummah”. It is Allah’s (Satan’s) antithesis to God’s “Ekklesia”. It has become apparent to me that although the enemy will try to destroy what God has created, he cannot. All he can do is create his own corrupted version of the elect (Isaiah 14:12-15) to wage war against God’s elect in an effort to replace God’s elect:

    * Yahweh has the Ekklesia.
    * Allah has the Ummah.

    * Yahweh’s Ekklesia is “as a bride adorned for her husband” and filled with “the glory of God”.
    * Allah’s Ummah is a harlot “decked with gold and precious stones and pearls” filled with abominations.

    * Yahweh has given the Ekklesia His Word, the Bible.
    * Allah has given the Ummah its corruption, the Qur’an.

    * Yahweh’s Ekklesia is the multitude of the Lamb, whom they follow.
    * Allah’s Ummah is the multitude of a man (the “prophet Muhammed”), whom they follow.

    * Yahweh’s Ekklesia comes out of Great Tribulation.
    * Allah’s Ummah is responsible for it.

    * Yahweh’s Ekklesia receives the seal of God upon their foreheads and are redeemed.
    * Allah’s Ummah receives the Mark of the Beast upon their foreheads and are condemned.

    * Yahweh’s Ekklesia will be lead to springs of living waters.
    * Allah’s Ummah will drink of the wine of the wrath of God.

    “With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries” (17:2), but the kings of the earth are not a part of the “woman”. In other words, although the “kings of the earth” commit “adultery” with the “Whore of Babylon” they are separate entities as it were from the woman and the Beast she rides. Not all nations of the earth will fall under the dominion of Antichrist.

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  7. ICA
    04/20/2012 at 1:25 AM

    Jack Smith, “I hope Shoebat is right; but I cannot imagine that Christians in American will not be subject to the same perils as Christians in the Middle East since the time of Muhuammad.”

    Although I believe that the “seat of the Beast” (cf Rev 13:2, 16:10) will be primarily regional, Islam’s influence definitely is and will be felt globally, as we are seeing today both inside and outside of politics.

    Also consider that just last year an American-born Al Qaeda leader publicly called upon Muslims in America to start buying guns and begin killing non-Muslim Americans. As I wrote here:

    I’ve believed for some time now that when this does come it will, with the right “triggering event”, not be isolated. It will be wide-scale. As we all know, there are millions upon millions of Muslims living in Western nations today. If an event were to occur in the world that would be eschatologically pivotal for Muslims this would be sure to awaken any radical elements within the Muslim population, regardless of where they live, and even radicalize some of those who were previously considered “moderate”. The arrival of al Mahdi, for example, could become the “triggering event” that has the potential to precipitate a sudden surge in Islamic terrorism all over the globe. If we are complacent into believing that any such scenario could never happen or is highly unlikely, we don’t need to look far before we come face to face with the sobering reality that Islamic terrorist cells are, today, already forming within our own borders.

    In February 2007 Dave Gaubatz, a former U.S. Federal Agent and State Department Arabic linguist, wrote in “American Thinker” that “There is every reason to suspect that we will endure suicide missions by Islamist sleeper cells. They are already in place. They are waiting for the right time. I know this from experience.” [1] His warning was brought to light again in January 2009 when Homeland Security released a detailed report revealing the growing threat of one such terrorist group, stating:

    An official government report concludes the Iranian-backed Islamic terror group [Hezbollah] has been forming sleeper cells throughout the United States that could become operational.

    The report estimates Hezbollah could become a much more potent national security threat by 2014. The group was responsible for the 1983 Beirut Marine Barracks bombing, which killed 241 U.S. Marines and 58 French servicemen.

    ‘The Lebanese Shiite group Hezbollah does not have a known history of
 fomenting attacks inside the U.S., but that could change if there is some
 kind of ‘triggering’ event, the homeland assessment cautions,” the report
 said.

    The report, obtained by the Middle East Newsline and marked “for official use only,” did not define a “triggering
 event.” Most of the threats cited in the report had been raised by the
 Homeland Security Department.
 [2]

    To contextualize the potential magnitude of what this could entail, consider the number of Muslims living in Western nations today. Although I believe that the vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace we cannot allow ourselves to become comatose to the reality that there are those who do not want to live in peace with the “infidel.” There are tens of millions of Muslims living in western countries, with an estimated 5-7 million Muslims living in the United States alone. Can we begin to imagine the havoc to be wrought if even 10% of them were to engage in terrorist activities to secure themselves a place in paradise? This could be at least 500,000 radicalized followers of the ‘prophet Mohammad’ who want us dead for the cause of Dar al Islam. The Fort Hood killer, a Muslim US Army Major, waged his own jihad and took 13 lives. This was just one man with a gun. Imagine what half a million all throughout the country wielding guns and knives could do with similar intent …

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  8. 04/20/2012 at 7:58 AM

    ICA – couple of comments, again, meant to be “short” in reply, as my time simply does not allow for more:
    You state,
    “…The verses above are obvious example of a synecdoche, an expression that uses a part for the whole, or the whole for a part. It’s like saying “the whole world watched the Super Bowl on Sunday” and is obviously not meant to be taken literally. Likewise, we often see this expression in Scripture, especially when we read about kings and their kingdoms, and the end-of-days leader identified as Antichrist is no different.”

    There is hardly a Bible scholar that would disagree w you on the passages given that they are figurative and not referring to the entire world. But are we saying that the “whole world” can never mean the “whole world” when used in the Bible? For example, Acts 1:8 “but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” Are we saying that the “remotest part of the earth” does not mean what it says, but only applies to the Middlle East? And if Christians are commanded to take the gospel to the “remotest part of the earth,” then how can we not expect the spirit of antichrist to function in the “remotest part of the earth”? If antichrist functions in the whole earth then why is the “whole earth” not being referred to in Rev 13:8?

    Or what of this passage: Daniel 7:25-27 “He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 ‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 ‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.” Notice the broadness of the kingdoms described in verse 7:27, “…all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One…” How can we possibly interpret this passage only to apply to the Middle East and her peoples and kingdoms? Daniel 7:25 specifically defines the kingdoms that will be “taken away” from the Antichrist’s dominion as “…all the kingdoms under the whole heaven…” This passage standing alone seems to refute any interpretation of end-times prophecy that limits the dominion of the antichrist to one area of the world. (I find the same conclusion present for Daniel 2:44-45, although it is not as clear.)

    While I agree that the inspired writers of the Bible were likely writing only about what they understood to be the world that does not mean that in the end-times, the whole earth is still limited in definition by the understanding of the original writers of the text. The world is a bigger place today — if for no other reason, the power of communication and technology. Are we to limit the meaning of Scripture today to what the original writers understood? Not with you there.

    Blessings, bro. Hope to respond to other comments later.
    Jack

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  9. ICA
    04/20/2012 at 12:05 PM

    Jack Smith, “There is hardly a Bible scholar that would disagree w you on the passages given that they are figurative and not referring to the entire world. But are we saying that the ‘whole world’ can never mean the ‘whole world’ when used in the Bible?” For example, Acts 1:8 ‘but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.’

    Hi Brother Smith. No, not at all. There are many examples that we can point to that obviously refer to the whole literal earth, and “gē” in Acts 1:8 would be one of those examples that refers to the earth as a whole and not just simply the region. We know this hermeneutically and exegetically because the Gospel is to be preached over the whole literal world (Matt 24:14, “this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikoumenē – the inhabited earth] for a witness unto all nations [pas ethnos – every ethnic group/tribe”; Matt 26:13, “Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world [kosmos – the world, all of humanity]).

    Jack Smith, “If antichrist functions in the whole earth then why is the “whole earth” not being referred to in Rev 13:8?”

    Not only are there no verses that describe the rule of Antichrist in a literally global sense in the original text, there are many verses that prohibit this understanding. Antichrist cannot have dominion over the whole literal planet if he needs to wage wars against other nations. He cannot have dominion over the whole literal planet if even one nation is able to “escape his hand.” He cannot have dominion over the whole planet when other nations are waging war against him right up until the end (Dan 11:39-45). Additionally, every nation that Scripture describes as being judged by Christ at Armageddon is today an Islamic nation. “Rome” is not an Islamic nation and is often mentioned in Scripture, but never as one destroyed by Christ at Armageddon. Why? Also consider the fact that the fourth and last “horseman of the Apocalypse” in Revelation 6 only has power over a fourth part of the earth, not the entire earth.

    Jack Smith, “Notice the broadness of the kingdoms described in verse 7:27, ‘…all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One…’ How can we possibly interpret this passage only to apply to the Middle East and her peoples and kingdoms?”

    It doesn’t apply only to the Middle East. This again comes back to our need to interpret Scripture in light of Scripture. As a sister book of Daniel, John also references this as well in Revelation 11:15 saying, “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world [kosmos] have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!'” John uses the word “kosmos” and is referring to the whole literal planet and not just the Middle East. Likewise, when Daniel writes “all the kingdoms under the whole heaven” he, too, is referring to all kingdoms of the earth and not only to those in the Middle East that were controlled by Antichrist.

    Jack Smith, “Are we to limit the meaning of Scripture today to what the original writers understood?”

    No. Sometimes even the prophets didn’t understand the visions they were given. All of Scripture is inspired of God and we must study and rightly divide the Word, “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little” (Isaiah 28:10). We must allow Scripture to interpret Scripture and recognize the fact that specific words may have been inspired by the Spirit for a specific reason, regardless of whether or not the writers may or may not have understood everything they were given.

    God bless brother…

    Like

    • iamnotashamedofthegospelofchrist
      04/20/2012 at 12:59 PM

      Excellent. I’m not as educated as some, but when I started studying prophesy 4 years ago, I was guided by the Holy Spirit (that’s the only explanation I have) to search out other scriptures and let the Bible interpret itself. And I have come to believe that the chapter (17) in Revelation that describes mystery Babylon tells us that 10 kingdoms will hand over power to the antichrist and satan at the very end. Which ones I cannot tell you, but I can say which ones are lining up to fit that bill, and they are the same ones you laid out earlier. I gain much from your insight, and it helps to fill in the blanks, every time I’m praying for guidance in a scripture, you seem to cover it, that’s not coincidence. Thank you.

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  10. 04/20/2012 at 9:52 PM

    ICA – good discussion. I do concur that in any war there has to be two sides. Part of the problem we have, however, is caused by the difficulty of timing in the different prophecies. We do not have clear Biblical direction as to the “when” of each prophecy’s fulfillment. For example, do we interpret Rev 13:7 (authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation) before or after the “war” (not Armagheddon)? In my view, Rev 13:7’s dominion is after significant world conflict and chaos has occurred — and the consequence is world dominion by the 1st beast (Allah and Islam (Ummah). I think this view is supported by the time of “overcoming” of Christendom by the 1st beast, i.e., 42 months (13:5, and Dan 7:25). That means the non-Muslim nations (including the US) are in conflict w Islam, and they ultimately lose. As stated, the primary weapon of Islam is not its military but its oil, and the resulting economic chaos inflicted upon the West throught this weapon.

    I am not sure I see where you are going w the Zach 5; however, I concur that the harlot of Rev 17 is Islam, specifically, Sunni Islam (Arabs).

    Blessings.
    Jack

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  11. ICA
    04/21/2012 at 1:23 PM

    Hi brother, it’s a good discussion indeed. I’ve enjoyed it very much.

    Jack Smith, “Part of the problem we have, however, is caused by the difficulty of timing in the different prophecies.”

    The issue I have with shifting such prophecies regarding Antichrist in terms of when they happen is that, in my opinion, Scripture doesn’t really give us any real justification for doing so. Even at the time of Christ’s return, Antichrist still has not been able to control the whole world. For example, in Daniel 11:44-45 we read that while other nations are still waging war against Antichrist it is during this time that “he shall come to his end”. Up to this point he has become increasingly powerful militarily, but then Christ returns in glorious splendor to deliver Israel and His people. Because of Antichrist’s arrogance and his false Islamic prophecies (as you know Islam teaches that our Messiah is their “Antichrist” that they must fight against, and that our Antichrist is their Messiah whom they must follow), he then decides to fight against our returning Yeshua, and is subsequently destroyed by Him (Daniel 8:25b, “… he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.”)

    Also consider this: If the Assyrian in Micah 5 is Antichrist, who are the “seven shepherds, and eight principal men” that come to Israel’s defence before the battle of Armageddon?

    One last thought: Scripture shows us at least one nation that will not be subjected to the rule of Antichrist. We read that “these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon” (Dan 11:41). If Jordan — who is situated smack-dab within the epicenter of it all and has a relatively tiny military in comparison to the United States — is able to “escape his hand”, does it not stand to reason that many more will also be able to do so as well? Does it not stand to reason that the most powerful military power on the opposite side of the world will easily be able to escape his hand?

    Jack Smith, “I am not sure I see where you are going w the Zach 5”

    For Zechariah 5, I’ve said all that to say this: The “kings of the earth” commit “adultery” with the “Whore of Babylon” who rides the Beast, which is to say, they commit spiritual adultery with Islam. I would contend that they are therefore not Muslim “kings” or nations if they are committing spiritual adultery with Islam. Not all nations of the earth will fall under the dominion of Antichrist. But, as we can see today, many governments (Obama’s included) are bending over backwards to accommodate her.

    Jack Smith, “I concur that the harlot of Rev 17 is Islam, specifically, Sunni Islam (Arabs).”

    I agree. And the Beast will turn against and devour Saudi Arabia. I expect Iran and its allies to act against the Saudi kingdom “soon”.

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  12. 04/22/2012 at 12:41 PM

    ICA :
    Because of Antichrist’s arrogance and his false Islamic prophecies (as you know Islam teaches that our Messiah is their “Antichrist” that they must fight against, and that our Antichrist is their Messiah whom they must follow), he then decides to fight against our returning Yeshua, and is subsequently destroyed by Him (Daniel 8:25b, “… he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.”)

    Good post, all in all, but you have misappropriated the Little Horn of Daniel 8 to refer to the end time Antichrist. While the Little Horn of Daniel 8 can certainly be called upon to foreshadow the end time Little Horn of Daniel 7, they are not the same.

    Dan 8:8-9: Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven. Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn

    Dan 8:20,21: The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia. The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece

    So Daniel is very clear on who the little horn is – he comes from the large horn, Alexander the Great. The four conspicuous horns are the four generals following Alexander – Cassander, etc., the most well-known of which is Antiochus Epiphanes, the rather small horn.

    Verse 22 continues the flow of the narrative:

    The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.

    Likewise verse 23:

    In the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue.

    This passage is all talking about the same person, Antiochus Epiphanes.

    Verse 24:

    His power will be mighty, but not by his own power, And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree. And prosper and perform his will; He will destroy mighty men and the holy people.

    We’re talking about a real, historical person here, fulfilled historically, agreed on by almost all evangelical scholars. This is an extraordinary fulfillment of prophecy, one so precise, along with the early portions of Dan 11, that many liberal scholars refuse to place Daniel’s writing earlier than the second century B.C., during the time of the Macabees. This is no small issue.

    Verse 25:

    And through his shrewdness. He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; And he will magnify himself in his heart, And he will destroy many while they are at ease [the Islamic Antichrist, really ??]. He will even oppose the Prince of princes [is this something only the Islamic Antichrist can do? Why not AE? Isn’t Yeshua eternal?], But he will be broken without human agency.

    And finally verse 26 brings us back to conclude the prophecy of the evenings and mornings of verse 14:

    The vision of the evenings and mornings which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days in the future.

    For those who would say ‘yes, but it says many days in the future.’ What, hundreds of years isn’t many days in the future? This chapter 8 little horn prophecy follows the chapter 7 little horn antichrist for a reason – the Holy Spirit is saying ‘to prove the truth of the chapter 7 LH, I will raise up a foreshadower LH (chapter 8).’

    The reason I have gone to such great lengths to flesh out this point is that because for the last 3 years now, I respect you, ICA, more than any other end times/scriptural expositor that I have come across, and I mean anybody, published, well-known or not. But you are clearly incorrect on this issue. I have shown that the LH’s of the two chapters are not the same. I hope from now on you drop this as a direct prophecy of the end time LH, or at least say that chapter 8 foreshadows the ch 7 one and some aspects of ch 7 may be similar to what is prophesied for the end times AC. But we cannot strictly say that ch 7 is a prophecy of the end times LH.

    For more on a comparison of the ch 7 and ch 8 LH, see this article on my blog: http://prophesite.wordpress.com/2012/02/18/two-little-horns-do-daniel-chapters-7-8-describe-the-same-individual/

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  13. ICA
    04/22/2012 at 1:54 PM

    Hi Kurt, there’s no doubt that we see “near” fulfilment of the passage in question with Antiochus Epiphanes, I agree 100%. But in my view I also consider this to be referring to a “far” fulfilment with the eschatonic Antichrist, as per Gabriel’s own explanation of the vision that Daniel was given:

    Daniel 8:15-19, “Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. And I heard a man’s voice between [the banks of] the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this [man] understand the vision.” So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision [refers] to the time of the end.” Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end [shall be].”

    When Gabriel says “the time of the end” and “what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation” when the end shall be, it stands to reason in my opinion that this is referring to what we commonly understand to be the end times leading up to the Second Coming, not solely to events that were fulfilled more than 100 years before Christ’s First Coming.

    When is the latter time of the indignation? Isaiah gives us a clue:

    Isaiah 34:2,4,8, “For the indignation of the LORD [is] against all nations, And [His] fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter… All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as [fruit] falling from a fig tree… For [it is] the day of the LORD’s vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.”

    When is this in the eschaton?

    Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”

    Revelation 6:12-14,18, “I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place… ‘For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?'”

    I could be wrong, and it’s ok to disagree. But this is one reason why I do not limit the vision of Daniel 8 solely to Antiochus Epiphanes. In light of this, the clue given to us in Daniel 8:25b, “… he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power” makes much more sense in terms of an eschatonic Antichrist, imho. This is precisely what happens at the Second Coming of Christ.

    2 Thess 2:8, “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.”

    Like

    • 04/23/2012 at 2:18 AM

      ICA,

      I know that you, that we are very invested in this “end times Islamic Antichrist” scenario, but please consider something for a moment: Is every prophecy of the OT unfulfilled? We answer, obviously “no”, because many have been fulfilled. The easiest ones, because our depth of understanding generally is shallow, have to do with fulfilled Messianic prophecies. But there are numerous other prophecies that were made and fulfilled during the OT era; to wit, Daniel 8 was fulfilled, as you acknowledge, in Antiochus Epiphanes. But there are many others too. So just because a prophecy sounds “end time-y” to us, or even uses the words “end times” doesn’t mean its our end times.

      I can find numerous prophecies that reference God’s “indignation” for instance, but do they all refer to only the end, end times (EET)?

      Isa 10:5-6: Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
      And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,
      I send it against a godless nation
      And commission it against the people of My fury

      Isa 10:24-25: Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, “O My people who dwell in Zion, do not fear the Assyrian who strikes you with the rod and lifts up his staff against you, the way Egypt did. For in a very little while My indignation against you will be spent and My anger will be directed to their destruction.”

      Jer 50:25 The LORD has opened His armory
      And has brought forth the weapons of His indignation,
      For it is a work of the Lord GOD of hosts
      In the land of the Chaldeans.

      All all these EET references? I suppose its possible, I’m not a Hebrew/OT scholar, but its much more likely that some or all were fulfilled more proximately to the time of the prophecy.

      So, Dan 8:15:

      15 When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought to understand it; and behold, standing before me was one who looked like a man.

      What vision? The one about AE, in vs 9-14.

      16 And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, “Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision.”

      What vision? The one about AE, in vs 9-14.

      17 So he came near to where I was standing, and when he came I was frightened and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.

      What vision? Uh, you get my point. What end? Obviously, one related to the vision of Antiochus. Now you can add the EET, but it would be you who is adding it, not the text. Do you want to do that? Do you want to say a specific prophecy has two specific fulfillments (and not a foreshadowment of another, different thing)? If you say that, on what biblical grounds do you stand? There is plenty of biblical grounds on which to state that God’s word is “yes and amen”, prophesied and fulfilled.

      Now to the business of “ends”. Is there truly only one end? Doesn’t a large portion of Daniel concern the coming Messiah (all together, “yes Kurt” –> I’m trying to keep my humor here, and of course its alright to disagree, especially about something like this). But another “end” is the “end” of the old covenant, dramatically prophesied in Dan 9:24-27, the doing away of sin, the bringing in of everlasting righteousness, etc.

      A significant part of the prophecy concerns of the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple, which follows the 70 sevens. Dispensationalists, and Partial Dispensationalists (think about that one for a minute) just don’t understand that Daniel 9 tells of the end times of the OT, that the old system would be desolated. Notice that the Dispensationalists (and the Partial D’s, the ones who want to put a gap, any sort of gap, in the 70th week, completely imposed on the passage) they intermingle this prophecy with the EET (think about that too).

      So I think most reading this (what’s that, about 2 or 3 people? Hah!) would agree that there is more than one end time, especially in the book of Daniel.

      I’ll skip v18, as its not pertinent to this discussion. Verse 19:

      19 He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.

      Now you see how this verse can be seen more sanely, in its context. Nothing about the ‘Heavens being rolled up like a scroll’ or ‘Mtns or islands being moved out of their place’. Just because there is a common word or two in this verse with other, clearly EET verses, does it place this passage in the EET, especially since Daniel just covered the EET in the previous chapter?

      I cannot agree that chapter 8 is also a reference to the “eschatonic” beast. Some of the larger issues for me I’ve touched on above:

      – The integrity of prophecy; one prophecy, one fulfillment.
      – The significance of the end of the sacrificial system.
      – The desolation of Jerusalem and the temple with the “not all Israel is Israel”‘s rejection of its Messiah
      – The importance of prophetic foreshadowing, seen all over the O.T., particularly of the work of Messiah; it retains its meaning when the foreshadow is symbol and the real is, well, real.

      Your brother in Yeshua,
      Kurt

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      • iamnotashamedofthegospelofchrist
        04/23/2012 at 7:25 AM

        There are 2 things that I cannot overlook when studying Daniel. #1. Christ says in Mark chapter 13 verse 14 When you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel…. and # 2., God says he tell’s the end from the beginning so we should not be so quick to dismiss any part of prophecy just because it looks as if it was fulfilled. Also don’t forget Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. So, again I’m not a theologian but I follow the Holy Spirit’s guidance. The reason I agree with ICA is this is the understanding I received after much confusion and anguish. This was way before I discovered this site. I am still learning something new every day. And I do think that we better get this right, because the time is coming quickly when everything will be so confusing that you won’t be able to tell the end from the begining. Remember he will deceive even the elect if that were possible. And I think Satan knows the scriptures as well as God does, so he will always be throwing a seed of discord into interpretation. We must not fall for this, and let God’s word interpret itself with the help of the Holy Spirit.

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        • 04/23/2012 at 10:31 AM

          IANA,

          Tell me what about the understanding that Daniel 8 is prophesying about Antiochus Epiphanes (even ICA agrees) changes anything about our understanding of “Antichrist”? Certainly AE is a foreshadow of him. The only verse of ch 8 that ICA uses to support his argument is v25: he will be broken without human agency. Regarding the Antichrist, this is said elsewhere in scripture: Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming (2 Thes 2:8).

          A seed of discord? I think we are trying to discover what exactly scripture is telling us – the way we do this is to debate debatable passages and sharpen one another’s understanding… we’re not going to see eye to eye every time.

          Kurt

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    • 04/23/2012 at 10:58 AM

      In my QT just now I read another “indignant” (za ‘am) verse – Zech 1:12, which definitely does not concern God’s EET indignation: Then the angel of the LORD said, “O LORD of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant [za ‘am, same word used in Dan 8:19] these seventy years?

      I would be careful with an automatic, word for word comparison to determine correlations – normally a very good tool, but not fool proof.

      Like

  14. Willard
    04/22/2012 at 8:42 PM

    Kurt – My thoughts on this are that I would have to agree more with ICA on Dan 8 – at least 6 times in some form or another Daniel refers to end days, end times, time of wrath etc.

    Also 8:5 tells us that the goat came from the west crossing the whole earth without touching the ground.

    This may or may not imply flying warfare, why is he coming from the west and why does he not touch the ground ?? Greece is more North than west. I would suggest for consideration that there are possibilities with what we see today happening in the ME with the Arab Spring and in Syria still undecided with much of it still future the western world will come against nuclear Persia and it may be. v8:9 mentions the South, East and the beautiful land but no North?? Why no North.

    Regards the 2300 evenings and mornings I just found the following which likely means nothing but is interesting none the same. From June 7th 2009 the final day of Obamas ME trip where he gave his infamous Cairo speach A NEW BEGINNING speach on June 4th 2009 and bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia June 2 – 2009 (Babylonia the Harlot) on this trip he also insulted the Queen.

    From June 7 the final day of the trip in 2009 to Yom Kippur 2015 is 2300 evenings and mornings ??

    Like

  15. Willard
    04/22/2012 at 8:48 PM

    Additionally I should also have mentioned that 42 years prior to June 7th 2009 on June 6th 1967 the Jews reclaimed Temple Mount.

    Like

  16. 04/23/2012 at 8:25 AM

    ICA :
    “For example, in Daniel 11:44-45 we read that while other nations are still waging war against Antichrist it is during this time that “he shall come to his end”. Up to this point he has become increasingly powerful militarily, but then Christ returns in glorious splendor to deliver Israel and His people.”

    ICA – If what you are saying is correct, then Daniel 11:44-45 is contradicting Revelation 13:7. How can Rev 13:7 tell us that the 1st beast “will have authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,” and Daniel 11:45 tell us “yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.” Seems to me they are talking about two different “people,” and two different end-time events. It does not seem to me that Daniel 11:44-45 is talking about the antichrist. I think the passage has all the characteristics of the antichrist except for one: “…he will come to his end…” If we understand “come to his end” to mean “death,” it can’t be talking about the antichrist, because the antichrist does not die; rather, he suffers eternally in the Lake of Fire along with the 1st beast and satan (Rev 19:20; 20:10). The only way that Dan 11 can be talking about the antichrist is if “come to his end” is the battle of Armagheddon which results in his “end,” i.e., his sentance to the Lake of Fire (Rev 19:19-20). The opening verse of this passage states, “… and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, …” This same king’s prospering includes, he “enters the Beautiful Land, and many countries fall; but these are rescued, Edom, Moab, and … Ammon.” I concur that these countries are modern day Jordan; but I do not see this as al-Mahdi’s and his leadership of the Ummah. Rather, this king is an “Antiochus Epiphanes type”; perhaps, an Ahmadinejad of Iran, but not the same as the 1st beast of Rev 13. The reason why this is significant is it brings us back to the main issue we are discusing: “Is American in bible prophecy?” If Rev 13 (and Daniel 7:23-28) is the controlling passage to answer this question, then Daniel 11 cannot be used to exclude America from the “whole world” dominion prophesied by Rev 13:7. I come back to the specific language of Revelation 13:7 and its very broad prophecy to reinforce my earlier point: “It was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.” Is there any way the scripture could not apply to the whole world given the language the text uses?

    Blessings, bro.
    Jack

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    • 04/23/2012 at 10:52 AM

      Jack,

      “He will come to his end”… couldn’t this mean the “end of his mortal life”? To be “thrown alive into the Lake of Fire…” – after we die, we are still “alive” spiritually; the beast will still be alive spiritually. I don’t think scripture is saying that a human, in the flesh, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, but the spirit of that human; otherwise he won’t be alive for long, certainly not 1000 years.

      Your other opposition to Dan 11:44-45, the extent of AC’s dominion, has been answered adequately I think previously in this thread, and by Walid’s original article.

      I guess that’s one potential problem with writing an ‘end times’ book – you sometimes find yourself changing your mind. At least I have changed mine on several issues. I think if I were to write a book I would entitle the last chapter “Check back with me in several years”.

      Kurt

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  17. iamnotashamedofthegospelofchrist
    04/23/2012 at 11:45 AM

    Hi Kurt, I didn’t mean to sound judgemental. I have had several discussions recently, and am currently in a Bible Study, so much of the time some get hung up on interpretations that really they shouldn’t. I do enjoy reading your input as well as everyone’s here. It helps me to put things in perspective. I feel like I’ve had an indepth study of Daniel after reading. However most books, and some commentaries suggest that Daniel 8 changes from AE to antichrist about verse 23. I don’t know, I’m still praying for guidance and knowledge, and since Daniel was ordered to seal this prophecy, we may not see reallly clear until the antichrist is totally revealed. I personally think he is alive and well right under everyones nose. I’ve been trying to do a study on the kingdoms of the 4 generals that split from alexander, I want to see a realtime map of their territories. If you can shed any light there, I would appreciate it. Thanks, and as Paul says “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you.”

    Like

  18. 04/23/2012 at 12:07 PM

    Kurt J. :
    Jack,
    “He will come to his end”… couldn’t this mean the “end of his mortal life”? To be “thrown alive into the Lake of Fire…” – after we die, we are still “alive” spiritually; the beast will still be alive spiritually. I don’t think scripture is saying that a human, in the flesh, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, but the spirit of that human; otherwise he won’t be alive for long, certainly not 1000 years.

    Hi, Kurt – I think this entire issue is a tough one to understand. I think about it this way: first, the beast from the sea (first beast) is a spiritual being. He is never “flesh and blood.” He is Allah. satan is a spiritual being, and he also is never flesh and blood. It is easy for us to see that the first beast, and satan, go directly into the Lake of Fire. They “do not die,” physically, because they are spiritual beings and not flesh and blood. Here is our dilemma: the exact same eternal punishment is given to the false prophet/antichrist that is given to satan and the first beast (Rev 19:20; 20:10). Threse three are the so-called “trinity of evil” because of their common eternal destination and eternal companionship, all three seem to “by-pass” a physical death. As you said, human beings do not by-pass death. Their bodies die; the spirits of humans survive, eternally. Interesting to me is that human allegiance with the first beast and the false prophet are so significant, spiriutally, that those humans who “take the mark of the beast” are specifically mentioned by scripture to also spend eternity with the beast they have made their allegiance with (Rev 14:9-11).

    The difficulty in interpreting the last false prophet is that we normally intepret him to be a human false prophet. However, for those of the Islamic Paradigm, we almost exclusively interpret al-Mahdi of Shi’ah Islam to be that last false prophet. Well, what is al-Mahdi really going to be? A human being or a spritual being or a combination thereof? If he is “Abaddon” (Rev 9:11) (as I believe he will be), angel of the abyss, he will presumbably be released from his “abyss” (Rev 17:8, 11). So what will he be when he is released? If Daniel 11:44-45 is referencing al-Mahdi, who “comes to his end,” then, who is Christ going to wage his battle against at Armagheddon? The Scripture specifically says that the false prophet is judged in this battle (Rev 19:20); also, Daniel 11:45 states that “no one will help him.” How can this be the same event as Armagheddon when the Scripture states that Christ (and the army that returns with him) wages war against the beast, the false prophet and the armies of “kings of the earht” who have assmebled their armies against Christ? (Rev 19:19).

    Bottom line to me: Daniel 11 doesnt seem to be led by the antichrist/al-Mahdi, but an “antiochus epiphanes” type; and, America is still under the dominion of the Islam by virute of Rev 13:7 – “…It was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.”

    I guess that’s one potential problem with writing an ‘end times’ book – you sometimes find yourself changing your mind. At least I have changed mine on several issues. I think if I were to write a book I would entitle the last chapter “Check back with me in several years”.

    Yep. I certainly agree with you on that point. Just ask me next week!

    Blessings –
    Jack

    Like

    • 04/23/2012 at 5:58 PM

      Kurt: I guess that’s one potential problem with writing an ‘end times’ book – you sometimes find yourself changing your mind…

      Jack: Yep. I certainly agree with you on that point. Just ask me next week!

      OK Jack, I like that attitude – humility. Amen.

      Jack: I think this entire issue is a tough one to understand. I think about it this way: first, the beast from the sea (first beast) is a spiritual being. He is never “flesh and blood.” He is Allah.

      I’ve wondered about the two “beasts” – the first and the second, also called “the false prophet”. Some people believe they are two individuals; Mike Bickle of IHOP, for instance. Maybe Joel R. also thinks that, given his Islamic Inverted Bible paradigm. I could easily see theme being a system though; I used to believe it was the Roman Catholic Church and the office of the Papacy per the reformers; now I see Antichrist related to Islam, but is it a revived Caliphate, with a literal head? Or is it Islam as a whole, acting thru the agency of M.E. governments against Israel, with no singular Antichrist, “the man of lawlessness” being representative of a type?

      Whether there is a spirit being behind the system or the person (there most certainly will be one, or millions), it is ultimately going to be a human, or humans, that commit the atrocities. I don’t see the scriptural need for a physical manifestation of Satan or a demon.

      Given the symbolic nature of Revelation, it is hard to be dogmatic on these issues.

      Jack: If Daniel 11:44-45 is referencing al-Mahdi, who “comes to his end,” then, who is Christ going to wage his battle against at Armagheddon?

      Can’t he come to his end by Yeshua vanquishing him? That’s how I always saw it.

      Like

  19. Willard
    04/23/2012 at 12:37 PM

    I AM NOT ASHAMED Below is an excellent map source for all of the ancient empires – choose Hellenistic Empire and you will basically see today’s over lay – It is very interesting as pretty much all of the lands of these four generals are today Islamic or under Islamic influence

    http://gaialab.asu.edu/DAAHL/GML.php

    Like

    • iamnotashamedofthegospelofchrist
      04/23/2012 at 1:20 PM

      Thanks so much for the map link, hoping this clears some things up for me.

      Like

  20. ICA
    04/23/2012 at 12:39 PM

    Jack Smith, “ICA – If what you are saying is correct, then Daniel 11:44-45 is contradicting Revelation 13:7. How can Rev 13:7 tell us that the 1st beast ‘will have authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation,’ and Daniel 11:45 tell us ‘yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.’ … This same king’s prospering includes, he ‘enters the Beautiful Land, and many countries fall; but these are rescued, Edom, Moab, and … Ammon.’ I concur that these countries are modern day Jordan; but I do not see this as al-Mahdi’s and his leadership of the Ummah.”

    Hi Jack, Antichrist will have authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation in the same sense that Nebuchadnezzar had authority over all people, nations, and languages that dwell in all the earth according to Daniel 4:1. Nebuchadnezzar did not control the Americas. He did not rule over Greenland. He was not an ancient Emperor of Japan, and the list goes on. History and archaeology testifies that his rule was relegated to the Middle East only. Daniel’s words, like John’s, are a figure of speech and are not intended to be understood in a wooden literal sense.

    Most scholars agree that the last portion of Daniel 11 is referring to the eschatonic Antichrist, not to an Antiochus Epiphanes-type. The prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are often intertwined, and I see no reason to create a new, separate end-times leader simply because Daniel 11 suggests additional details that refute the common understanding that the rule of Antichrist is global.

    Jack Smith, “It does not seem to me that Daniel 11:44-45 is talking about the antichrist. I think the passage has all the characteristics of the antichrist except for one: ‘…he will come to his end…'”

    When Antichrist is cast alive into the lake of fire, does he not come to his end? Kurt has given a good answer to the possible spiritual meaning, but if physical, could this not also be symbolizing what similarly happened with Korah in Numbers when he and his men were consumed alive by the fire?

    Numbers 26:10, “And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.”

    Kurt, “Is every prophecy of the OT unfulfilled? We answer, obviously ‘no’, because many have been fulfilled. The easiest ones, because our depth of understanding generally is shallow, have to do with fulfilled Messianic prophecies.”

    I agree. Two of the most pivotal events in the history of the world will be the First Coming of Christ, and the Second Coming of Christ. Is it not reasonable to therefore expect that the majority of prophecies refer to one of these Advents, and the events surrounding them? They are what have changed, and what will change, the course of human history forever.

    Kurt, “The importance of prophetic foreshadowing, seen all over the O.T., particularly of the work of Messiah; it retains its meaning when the foreshadow is symbol and the real is, well, real.”

    I also see this as well with respect to Antichrist and view Antiochus Epiphanes as a type of Antichrist. I understand that you believe there is only one fulfillment, and that is your prerogative. Let each be convinced in their own mind. In my view, however, although there is a historical fulfillment in the type, I also see a future fulfillment in its totality for reasons I’ve explained previously. I believe that “the time of the end” and the “latter time” or “last end” of the indignation is precisely that, not merely the end of Antiochus Epiphanes. The indignation continues long after Antiochus Epiphanes. We’ll have to agree to disagree in this respect.

    Good discussion folks! This is how we discover, discern, and develop …

    Like

  21. ICA
    04/23/2012 at 9:52 PM

    Jack Smith, “Daniel 11 doesnt seem to be led by the antichrist/al-Mahdi, but an ‘antiochus epiphanes’ type; and, America is still under the dominion of the Islam by virute of Rev 13:7”

    Here’s a question that just came to me, but first I’ll provide its context:

    Revelation 6:8, “And I looked, and behold a chlōros [green] horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the thērion [brutal, savage men] of the earth.”

    In a brief commentary to the article titled “The Christian Era in the Middle East is Over, ‘Will Be Completely Green, the Colour of Islam’”, I wrote that in Revelation 6:8 John describes the “fourth horseman of the Apocalypse” as being “chlōros”, literally translated as “green”. Green is the official color of Islam and is believed to have been Mohammed’s favorite. The “fourth horseman” is described as having power over the fourth part of the earth. I don’t believe that it is a mere coincidence that Islam today has dominion over a fourth part of the earth. John describes the “fourth horseman” as having the power to “kill with sword.” Islam is spread through Jihad, the “Sword of Islam.”  The “fourth horseman” also kills with hunger/famine. Spiritual destitution aside, Islamists would even prefer to see children starve to death than have them receive life-saving aid from the “Christian West.” The “fourth horseman” kills with “death”, and the love of death in suicide and martyrdom operations against men, women and children for the cause of “Allah” permeates Islamic culture, so much that they openly declare to “love death more than you love life.” Lastly, the “fourth horseman” is described as killing with “the beasts of the earth.” The Greek word “thērion” here is, I believe, being used metaphorically to refer to “savage”, “brutal” and “bestial” men, a perfect description of what we see today in the radical world of Islam’s death seekers.

    After John writes about the Fourth Horseman that has power over a forth part of the earth he then describes the martyrs of Jesus and then begins describing events that take place “immediately after the tribulation” according to Christ in Matthew 24:29.

    Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

    Revelation 6:12-13, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.”

    Question: If the dominion of Antichrist and Islam will have power over the whole literal world, then why does the Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse only have power over a fourth part of the earth?

    Like

    • 04/25/2012 at 8:57 PM

      ICA – At the opening of the 4th seal, the entire world is not under the dominion of the 1st beast. The dominion of the entire world does not take place until after Christans are overocme (3.5 years into Tribulation; adn, I believe raptured at the 3.5 yr mark). The 6th seal is when the text first mentions the “wrath of God” being poured out (Rev 6:12-17; 17). The dominion of the world will not occur until the wrath of God is poured out. This means to me that America is not under the dominion of Allah until at least the 6th seal. Until then, I concur with your view — America is opposing the dominion of the Antichrist empire until just before the return of Christ. This is what I referred to earlier about the difficulty of interpreting the timing of the different prophecy passages. We are all interpreting different passages as if they are the same point in time. They arent. To me, this is why there are 7 seals, and they progress in their degree of tribulation because time progresses closer to the 2nd coming of Christ, the judgment of the antichrist and his empire. It is as if the antichrist wins lots of battles until the last battle. In that battle, he is judged in the lake of fire, along with his two compartriots and those who have aligned themselves w him.

      Like

  22. james
    04/23/2012 at 10:22 PM

    You guys make me feel like a scriptural lightweight! thank you for sharing your thoughts: very interesting! one things for sure, if the endtime religion and the anti christ does not involve islam, i am monkey’s uncle!

    Has not the Lord made it rather obvious however, to the whole world?: i.e. a triumphant islamic shrine(the dome of the rock) sitting squarely over the destroyed ancient jewish temple? and now the moslem nations gaining in power with regathered israel the ultimate target of their demonic wrath?

    At least the big pieces of the prophetic puzzle are in place.

    I give a lot of thought and wonder concerning the apostacy of 2nd thessalonians:

    “Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” — 2 Thess. 2:3.

    It may not take much for many professing christians worldwide to apostacize to islam, especially with numerous church leaders coddling up to their islamic masters, in hope of a future mercy?! ( i am referring to the common word document sent out by moslem clerics to dozens of church leaders a few years back, with the Christ denying responses that many of them gave: in effect that we “worship the same god”. (acommonword.com)

    What a day of decision for the churches and for every individual christian: are you with israel or are you with the terrorists(moslems)? there is no middle ground!

    What do you guys think? would it be prudent for a christian (in america for instance) to store up a supply of food and water, in the event that persia: i.e. iran attacks its oil rich sunni neighbors and instigates a worldwide economic crisis? (takes peace from the earth: possibly the 2nd horseman(red) of revelation ?

    ref: Daniel 7: ram with two horns charging northward, westward, southward.

    thanks,

    james

    Like

  23. 04/23/2012 at 11:34 PM

    Being prepared is both a wise and christian thing to do, and that would include having food, water and shelter for ourselves and our families.

    James – When I read Dan 7 I always walk away with the bear (Persia / Iran) with three ribs in its mouth which was told to eat its fill of flesh – some say this has been fulfilled in the days of Persia but I think that it is still ahead of us as well maybe a dual prophecy

    ICA – Question: If the dominion of Antichrist and Islam will have power over the whole literal world, then why does the Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse only have power over a fourth part of the earth

    I think Dan 11:44-45 echoes your above words when it refers to reports coming from the North and the East

    Da 11:44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.
    Da 11:45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him

    Like

    • james
      04/24/2012 at 10:37 AM

      willard,

      and the ram(modern iran) becomes ‘great’ and unstoppable! daniel 8:4:

      I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great .

      How much food and water should one store? i am thinking along the lines of 1 month’s supply: bottled water, canned food, propane stove, candles, plenty of paper products.

      Now is it wise to store gasoline? probably not, might go bad after a long period of time…

      QUESTION:

      What happens if the oil flow stops from the middle east? thoughts? how disruptive can this be? “takes peace(stability) from the earth” revelation 6.4

      Like

  24. james
    04/24/2012 at 8:37 AM

    living outside the middle east,

    i would be relieved that anti christ’s domain is centered there, however how far down the road in time do the moslems gain in numbers in the west? how long before they can take over europe? what if the usa begins taking in millions of moslem refugees from places like syria? if so, they can make life miserable even though still a minority.

    Like

  25. ICA
    04/24/2012 at 12:14 PM

    It isn’t far down the road. Although Antichrist’s power will be confined, the problems will not be. Europe is already being “taken over”, and America is already having its own share of problems. Here are a few examples:

    Expert: Large European Cities Overwhelmed by Muslim Population – “Muslim population in many big European cities already exceeds 20%, according to Alex Alexiev, an expert in international security and radical Islam and visiting fellow at the Hudson Institute, Washington, D.C. In his words, however, what is especially worrying is that these Muslims are getting radicalized. The expert reckons that almost all Western European countries are marked by a high degree of radicalization. ‘Unlike our Muslims from the Balkan Peninsula, they are much more prone to radicalization because the religious organs in Western Europe, the Muslim religious organs, are controlled and commanded by radical Islamists, subsidized/financed by Saudi Arabia and other places, and preach the ideologies of the Muslim Brotherhood and etc’, Alexiev explains in an interview fir the Focus news agency.” Read more.

    Losing Malmo: Sweden Surrenders Their Third Largest City … to Muslims – “Do you remember the jihadist terror campaign that ravaged Malmo, Sweden’s third largest city? Do you recall the bombings, the suicide-hijackings, and the random assassinations that finally coerced the city to surrender to Islamization? No? Funny, I don’t remember them either. Yet there is no question that Malmo has surrendered. Large enclaves of the city, like similar enclaves throughout Western Europe, have earned the dread label ‘no-go zone.’ They are unsafe for non-Muslims, particularly women who do not conform to Islamist conventions of dress and social interaction.” Read more.

    Occupation Without Tanks or Soldiers: European ‘No-Go’ Zones for Non-Muslims Proliferating – “Islamic extremists are stepping up the creation of ‘no-go’ areas in European cities that are off-limits to non-Muslims. Many of the ‘no-go’ zones function as microstates governed by Islamic Sharia law. Host-country authorities effectively have lost control in these areas and in many instances are unable to provide even basic public aid such as police, fire fighting and ambulance services.” Read more.

    Spanish Town Becoming ‘New Mecca of the Most Radical Islamism’ – “The municipality of Salt, a town near Barcelona where Muslim immigrants now make up 40% of the population, has approved a one-year ban on the construction of new mosques. It is the first ban of its kind in Spain. The moratorium follows public outrage over plans to build a massive Salafi mosque that is being financed by Saudi Arabia. Salafism is a branch of revivalist Islam that calls for restoring past Muslim glory by forcibly re-establishing an Islamic empire (Caliphate) across the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe such as Spain, which Salafists view as a Muslim state that must be reconquered for Islam.” Read more.

    Muslim Gangs Terrorize Denmark, ‘With Islam Comes Fear, And With Fear Comes Power’ – “More than 140 Muslim gang members were arrested in Denmark after they tried to raid a courthouse where two fellow Muslims are being tried for attempted murder. The Muslims — all members of criminal street gangs that have taken over large parts of Danish towns and cities — were wearing masks and bullet-proof vests and throwing rocks and bottles as they tried to force their way into the district courthouse in Glostrup, a heavily Islamized suburb of Copenhagen, on March 6. Police used batons and pepper spray to fend off the gang members, who were armed with an arsenal of 20 different types of weapons, including crowbars, darts, hammers, knives, screwdrivers and wooden clubs.” Read more.

    British Woman Gang Raped by Five Afghan ‘Refugees’, Europe Continues to Suffer From Muslim Gang Rape Epidemic – “The brutal gang rape of a British woman by five Afghan refugees has sparked a massive protest against illegal immigrants in a Serbian spa town.The 38-year-old woman – who bravely managed to film the attack on her mobile phone – was repeatedly raped after befriending a group of Afghan men in a park in Banja Koviljaca… ‘These people are always hanging around the parks and streets during the day causing trouble,’ said one mum. ‘They have no respect for us, no respect for women and we want them gone because they have no right to be here.’” Read more.

    Europe’s New Nazis, ‘The Killing Will Not Stop Until the Muslim Occupation of Europe Comes to An End’ – “There was a time when Jewish children were hunted down and killed in France. Their killers believed themselves to be members of a superior group that was destined to rule the world and enslave or exterminate members of inferior groups. The cowardice and appeasement of the French authorities allowed them to operate freely, to kill Jews and launch attacks on other countries. What was then is now again. The occupying army doesn’t wear uniforms, it wears keffiyahs. It doesn’t speak German, it speaks Arabic. It doesn’t believe that it is superior for reasons of race as much as for reasons of religion. It does not view all others as Untermenschen, but as infidels. It looks forward not to a thousand year Reich, but to a thousand year Caliphate.” Read more.

    This is the tip of the iceberg. Despite the obvious problems that Muslim immigration is causing for Europe, it seems that the Obama Administration has plans of its own:

    Obama Continues to Flood America With Muslim Immigrants – “President Barack Hussein Obama, in a determination letter to Congress, has announced that he will allow an additional 80,000 immigrants – – mostly from Islamic countries – – to resettle in the United States during fiscal year 2011. Mr. Obama says that the increase in Muslim immigrants ‘is justified by humanitarian concerns or is otherwise in the national interest.’ … Refugee Resettlement Watch and other organizations have expressed grave concern that Mr. Obama is allowing so many immigrants into the country while so many Americans remain out of work and living in poverty.” Read more.

    And this is being done despite the fact that:

    New Study Shows That 80% of Mosques in America Teach Jihad Violence and Islamic Supremacism – “This study is extensive and detailed. Look over all the data. Above all, call upon your elected officials and the media to take notice — at very least, to ask pointed questions from local mosque leaders about the books they’re using and what they’re teaching in general. Call on them to require honest, verifiable answers.” Read more.

    When the Obama Administration buries its proverbial head in the sand, pretending that Islamic terrorism is all but non-existent, is it any wonder when homegrown terrorism sees a sharp increase during Obama’s first term?

    ‘An Ongoing Sharp Increase in Jihad Activity in Obama’s America’ – “It is almost every day now. Jihadi attacks in America. This past week there were three attempted jihad attacks. And what does the media consider the problem? Racistislamophobicantimuslimbigots, of course. On Saturday, a Muslim named Sami Osmakac was arrested in Florida on charges of plotting to go jihad on nightclubs and the Tampa, Florida, sheriff’s headquarters. ‘We all have to die,’ Osmakac said, ‘so why not die the Islamic way?’” Read more.

    Report: 35 Islamic Terror Training Camps Now Operating … Inside the United States – “A radical jihadist group responsible for nearly 50 attacks on American soil is operating 35 terrorist training camps across the nation, but the U.S. government refuses to include the organization on the State Department’s list of foreign terrorists. Jamaat ul-Fuqra, known in the U.S. as ‘Muslims of America,’ has purchased or leased hundreds of acres of property – from New York to California – in which the leader, Sheikh Mubarak Gilani, boasts of conducting ‘the most advanced training courses in Islamic military warfare.’ In a recruitment video captured from Gilani’s ‘Soldiers of Allah,’ he states in English: ‘We are fighting to destroy the enemy. We are dealing with evil at its roots and its roots are America.’” Read more.

    Critics: Eric Holder’s willful ignorance about the religious roots of Islamic terrorism is endangering Americans – “Attorney General Eric Holder is stereotyping Muslims in America, and his willful ignorance about the religious roots of Islamic terrorism endangers Americans and marginalizes Muslim reformers, say experts on Islamist terror groups. That assessment was prompted by Holder’s announcement during a Tuesday congressional hearing that American Muslims ‘have the same desires that we all have.’ His declaration came during an answer about the training manuals used by some FBI trainers, which have drawn furious criticism from Islamist lobby groups. Those manuals, Holder said, contain training lessons that ‘can really undermine, really undermine, the really substantial outreach efforts that we have made and really have a negative impact on our ability to communicate effectively, as we have in the past, with this community.’” Read more.

    If America won’t do anything to combat Islamists in America, there isn’t anything that Islamists won’t do.

    Like

    • james
      04/24/2012 at 9:40 PM

      thank you all very much for all of the valuable information you post concerning the islamic onslaught!

      can anyone sane person deny that we have a catastrophe on our hands?

      i cannot ignore this issue! i brought it up at a men’s bible study and was summarily shot down by a church elder: i feel like i had a better response at my lutheran church(missouri synod) bible study. i sort of crashed the study on the end by bringing up the alarming evidence of apostatic leanings by numerous church leaders worldwide.

      how can we have ‘business as usual’ in the church when we are on the verge of being conquored by islam?

      the poor brethren suffering persection worldwide! how can we ignore it? what can we do to help them? this issue should be on the agenda of every church meeting!

      one the one hand i have such joy that my Saviour is coming soon, but on the other hand i grieve for what is coming on the world! 3.5 years of satan’s wrath is a long time. as i drive around my town everything looks so normal, but on the other hand i sense such a vulnerabilty to our society once the oil stops flowing: how is the food going to get to the store w/o gasoline? our police are so outnumbered by the criminal element of society who would take advantage of any emergency. recall the looting and lawlessness in new orleans duriing hurricane katrina.

      today i bought 6 gallons of water, 7 cans of spinach, and two boxes of salt as the start for my personal strategic emergency food supply. i felt a little sheepish and foolish. am i a fanatic? doomsdayer? but believe it or not my wife has not protested nor ridiculed me…

      ica and others please continue to post: we cannot let this issue be swept under the rug!

      during my lunch hour i passed out gospel tracts and scripture booklets house to house in my city. i feel a compulsion and reinvigoration in proclaiming the gospel as i witness these last day islamic events unfold.

      may the Lord bless you all richly as you serve him according to your gifts.

      i am so glad i have come to this site, what a wealth of information and food for thought.

      say, has anyone else read marc davidson’s book: ‘hidden in plain sight’? its a study on the sequence of pre tribulational events: i enjoyed it very much and would welcome opinions.

      thankfully in the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, our incomparable Master and King who is so gracious and loving to even forget our sins under the new covenant! what a Saviour!!

      Praise you Lord Jesus forever!

      james

      Like

  26. Willard
    04/24/2012 at 2:51 PM

    james – The #1 thing I feel is to trust God for all things. But typically if a person had 30 days to 60 days would sound normal. If everything crashed today me and my wife would survive quite easily 60 days. Not because we have necessarily deliberately stock piled stuff – but that is just how we live – we always have bought bulk COSCO and always had a freezer and a large pantry I guess because we grew up on the farm with large gardens, canning etc.

    Like

  27. Willard
    04/24/2012 at 3:18 PM

    james – The #1 thing I feel is to trust God for all things. But typically if a person had 30 days to 60 days would sound normal, especially dry goods like rice, pasta, beans, spices and herbs, milk powder, sugar, flour, canned stuff and the like. Propane for a barb-q etc. Where I live we have lots of wood and a fire pit again just because we like to sit around a fire in the evenings some times.

    If everything crashed today me and my wife would survive quite easily 60 days. Not because we have necessarily delibertly stock piled stuff – but that is just how we live – we always have bought bulk COSCO and always had a freezer and a large pantry I guess because we grew up on the farm with large gardens, canning etc.

    But the bottom line is GOD provides. I do not like talking about it as it always seems like bragging. But on Aug 2 1990 until Dec 10th I was a hostage in Kuwait one of Saddam’s so called guests. I was on my way to India and got caught up in it all accidentally when we landed in the airport 30 mins before the war broke out and the runways were bombed. I had about a hundred bucks on me. In the entire 4 plus months that I was there I never missed a meal, or was hungry, or missed a nights sleep in a good bed. The morning we were released we had seven types of cheese for breakfast, toast, eggs, bacon, grapes, oranges, and much more. I knew and trusted before but from that day forward all doubt was gone. There is too much to fill in all of the blanks.

    Like

    • james
      04/24/2012 at 9:49 PM

      amen thank you brother for your encouragement! i suppose we could go overboard on this, but hey what’s a couple hundred bucks for water, propane, toilet paper canned goods for riding out the first shockwaves of iran’s invasion and destruction of saudi arabia?

      is this what is described in revelation 17? the destruction of mystery babylon?

      is there concurrence here that mystery babylon is arabia?

      Like

    • 04/25/2012 at 1:02 AM

      Willard,

      I’ve read bits and pieces of your story – you should write out a longer version for your online friends to read.

      Kurt

      Like

  28. 04/24/2012 at 9:03 PM

    Question: If the dominion of Antichrist and Islam will have power over the whole literal world, then why does the Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse only have power over a fourth part of the earth?

    ICA – This may seem comical, but think about this a moment. Sometimes I think we have to think about prophecy in two ways: some passages are like a movie; you begin the first verse in the passage and its the first scene of the movie. You go all the way through the passage and the movie keeps rolling until you get to the end of the passage and the movie is over. I think Daniel 11 is like that movie. It has a beginning, a middle and an end scene in the movie. The end is when the “king” is defeated having earlier been victorious, including entering Jerusalem and overcoming many countries in the process; yet defeated in the end. But this movie is only one in a series of movies that are all going on simultaneously.

    Other passages are like snapshots. They are not movies, but snap shots taken at different points of the prophecies, yet to be fulfilled. Revelation 13:7-8 is a snap shot; except the snap shot is taken from the movie when the movie is almost over. The snap shot is the next to last scene in the movie (the last scene is the return of Christ to remove Allah and judge those who have aligned with him). Revelation 13 gives us little detail for what has already happened to get us to the particular scene. Other passages provide the steps to get us there. The world dominion that is described in 13:7-8 is after a series of world struggles. World chaos, famine, and death, all occur and lead up to the events of 13:7-8 (world dominion). Coutries around the world have experienced this chaos; it has been precipitated by the economic sword of petroleum used by Islam against the world, resulting in the collapse of world economies, rioting, and the failure of democratic political systems and societies as a result. This snap shot iof war, famine, death, is prophesied, I think, in the 1st – 4th seals of Rev 6. The people of these fallen societies couldnt care less whether they submit to Islam or any other religion. They only want the “world” as they know it to return. They pressure their world leaders who agree to submit to Islam so that “peace” will return; and so the world leaders bow to Islam, and to Allah. They want their economies to be revived, and their societies to return to “normal.” In so doing, they committ the “spritual immorality” prophesied by Rev 17-18 (another movie, itself which also precipitates the economic sword of petroleum becoming sharper in its impact; Muslim against Muslim). The overcoming of Christianity takes place during this period because Christians will not submit to Islam regardless of the cost (for 42 months they are overcome (13:5,7).

    Ok. Maybe I should sell it to Hollywood? But I think that is the picture Scripture paints. If America is not in the picture it will not “paint.” America is too big economically to be allowed to survive. If America survives the world survives. If America survives then Islamic dominion in the world will not occur, regardless of how you define the world. Israel presumably is in your definition of the world. It will fall under any paradigm. It will be rescued, but only at the end of the movie at the return of Christ.

    Bless you, brother.
    Jack

    Like

  29. ICA
    04/24/2012 at 10:17 PM

    Jack Smith, “some passages are like a movie … It has a beginning, a middle and an end scene in the movie … Other passages are like snapshots.”

    Hi brother, I can agree with that, yes. It’s a good analogy!

    Jack Smith, “I think Daniel 11 is like that movie … But this movie is only one in a series of movies that are all going on simultaneously.”

    Where I differ here is that I view the prophetic descriptions of events leading up to the Second Coming as one single climactic conclusion to one single riveting film, albeit from separate, individual camera angles. John may describe an event in one way with a particular focus, whereas the text of Daniel or Ezekiel for example may each provide their own separate camera angle of the same scene, through a different lens. One may be a close-up shot paying close attention to certain specific details, another may be a long, broad shot of the scene to give an overall view of what is happening which would not necessarily always provide those same details.

    Having said that, what is in the text of Daniel 11 that would cause someone to conclude that it is one movie in a series of movies, as opposed to simply being a separate broad camera angle to the same climactic end scene? Would that conclusion be based upon what the whole of the prophetic texts are telling us, or is that conclusion derived from the premiss that the scope of Antichrist’s dominion is universal? If we begin with a faulty premiss to begin with, the conclusion will often be incorrect. This is why it is important, in my way of thinking, to ascertain the full picture — exegetically, hermeneutically, whatever it takes — using the full counsel of Scripture that we have been given. May each one of us be convinced in our own mind …

    Jack Smith, “If America is not in the picture it will not ‘paint.’ America is too big economically to be allowed to survive. If America survives the world survives. If America survives then Islamic dominion in the world will not occur, regardless of how you define the world.”

    It’ll paint a picture, just not the one that we’ve expected if we’ve always approached the text with the expectation that Antichrist’s rule extends as far west as it does east. I do believe that America will undergo significant trial and pain, but I also believe that America will survive. If Egypt — a nation who will hand over its authority to Antichrist — will survive (Zech 14:18), then so will many, many others. Even if there is an economic collapse, America will live to see another day. The Second Amendment will see to that. :)

    Jack Smith, “Israel presumably is in your definition of the world. It will fall under any paradigm. It will be rescued, but only at the end of the movie at the return of Christ.”

    Amen!

    Like

    • james
      04/24/2012 at 11:00 PM

      jack,

      you say: ‘ This snap shot of war, famine, death, is prophesied, I think, in the 1st – 4th seals of Rev 6.’

      marc davidson believes the 4 horsemen lead up to the tribulation: in fact that the 1st horseman was the modern king of babylon sadam hussein. davidson believes that the opening of the 2nd seal is iran’s invasion of daniel 8.4. (his book is called ‘hidden in plain sight’.

      james

      Like

  30. 04/25/2012 at 1:26 AM

    Jack Smith :
    …The world dominion that is described in 13:7-8 is after a series of world struggles. World chaos, famine, and death, all occur and lead up to the events of 13:7-8 (world dominion). Coutries around the world have experienced this chaos; it has been precipitated by the economic sword of petroleum used by Islam against the world, resulting in the collapse of world economies, rioting, and the failure of democratic political systems and societies as a result. This snap shot iof war, famine, death, is prophesied, I think, in the 1st – 4th seals of Rev 6…

    Jack, another support for the notion that Antichrist-beast doesn’t rule the entire world are the Matt 24 verses that follow the description of the return of Christ that warn us to stay alert, because Jesus may return at a time when we are not ready – there are other similar passages in the NT. These kinds of warnings wouldn’t be necessary if Antichrist was so obvious and ruled the whole world:

    36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

    There has to be some areas of the world in which life is going on pretty much normally for this verse to be true at the same time tribulations and war are happening in the ME.

    42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

    If we’re expecting the whole world to be in a “great tribulation” (beyond what its been since the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, which is the biblical teaching) and under direct control of Antichrist, but the world is not under such control, and so we’re content to live a God-less life (I’m not saying that’s us who are trying to follow Yeshua and discern the truth in the Word), we might be surprised when he suddenly splits the skies to repel an Islamic onslaught on Jerusalem.

    45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Like

    • 04/25/2012 at 9:17 PM

      Kurt (and others) – for Christ to warn us to be ready for his return does not have anything to do w the empire of the antichrist and when it will have dominion over the world. Matt 24 was given to the disciples in Jesus’ day, and was an encouragement to them (and all believers thereafter) to stay alert spiritually (whatever the time was). Also, suppose Matt 24 is referring to the rapture and not the second coming? I interpret Islam’s dominion of the world to take place during the time of the wrath of God not the wrath of satan, i.e., the last 3.5 years of the tribulation wll be the time the world is under his dominion. This would mean that Christians are no longer present on earth when the dominion takes place. The 42 months that Rev 13:5 and Daniel 7:25 refer to wherein Christians are overcome is the time during which the apostasy of 2 Thess 2:3 occurs. The apostasy occurs because of the “overcoming” of the saints. This has the impact of “purifying” the church because of the difficulites of the time period. Yet, it will only get worse as the time of the wrath of God occurs in the latter half of the tribulation (Rev 14:14- 20), and world dominion, in my view takes place.

      Like

      • 04/25/2012 at 10:16 PM

        Jack,

        Its hard for me to respond to this – we’re quite far apart in our understanding of Revelation, of the rapture, of the tribulation… Don’t know how much of ICA you have read, but I’m pretty much lock step with him on most of his end time writings; they make much more sense biblically and current events-wise than what you have just stated above. I won’t bother responding point by point, because likely ICA will, and besides, you can read what he’s written about the post-trib rapture, the Semitic style of Revelation in his articles.

        Take care,
        Kurt

        Like

  31. james
    04/25/2012 at 8:52 AM

    kurt,

    excellent point made and backed up by scripture.

    Like

  32. ICA
    04/25/2012 at 10:19 AM

    Kurt, “Jack, another support for the notion that Antichrist-beast doesn’t rule the entire world are the Matt 24 verses that follow the description of the return of Christ that warn us to stay alert, because Jesus may return at a time when we are not ready – there are other similar passages in the NT. These kinds of warnings wouldn’t be necessary if Antichrist was so obvious and ruled the whole world:

    36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; …”

    Well said, and also I would emphasize the following: “… For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark …”

    What could only be described as “business as usual” for many will continue right up until the day that Christ returns. If we are watching, we’ll know when He is coming:

    1 Thess 5:4,6, “But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief … Therefore let us not sleep, as others [do], but let us watch and be sober.”

    Revelation 3:3, “Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.”

    Like

  33. Willard
    04/25/2012 at 2:14 PM

    The days of Noah – I think one of the greatest signs of Noah we are seeing today is all of the seismic activity we are seeing world wide – just like the earth was broken up in Noah’s day it once again is beginning to be torn apart.

    Earthquakes are becoming almost a daily/weekly event world wide and volcanoes erupting and ancient ones again becoming active just like in Noah’s day

    Like

  34. 04/25/2012 at 9:37 PM

    ICA (and others) – the other issue that comes to my mind when trying to understand the meaning of the “whole world” is this. When the orignal writers used the phrase “whole world,” it seems to me that what they had in mind was the world as they understood it. What they did not know existed could harldy be referred to in the passage. For example, America was not remotely in mind when the various prophecies for Babylonian dominion were made; and, obviously, Babylon never had dominion over America! Are we to limit the meaning of the same phrase to the “world” as known by the prophets of the 5th century BC? Seems to me that the more correct interpretation is that the end-times prophecy would have the same meaning that it did when it was given to prophets of the 5th century; that is, they were referring to the “whole world as they understood it,” not the literal nations that made up the “whole world” as they understood it. To properly interpret the passage in the end-times, we must let the phrase “whole world” refer to the “world world as we understand it,” today.

    Also, think about the phrase “remote north” used in Ezekiel 38 and 39. Many of us interpret that phrase to refer to Russia (I do, anyway). Russia is not in the Middle East, yet, we interpret Russia to be the superpower country that will join w nations of the Middle East against Israel in the end-times. How is it that we can interpret Russia to be the “remote north” nation in Ezekiel 38/39 when it was not even known to exist when the prophets gave prophecy for it, and not inclide America in the phrase in Rev 13:7: “… authority over every tribe and and people and tongue and nation…” That seems to be contradictory to me. If we are gong to look beyond the Middle East to define “remote north” then we must, likewise, look beyond the Middle East to define “whole earth” in Rev 13.

    Blessings. Getting late.

    Like

  35. ICA
    04/25/2012 at 11:57 PM

    Jack Smith, “Also, suppose Matt 24 is referring to the rapture and not the second coming?”

    In my view (post-trib / pre-wrath), the rapture and Second Coming are one and the same. Years ago I’ve come to the conclusion that the pre-wrath position of Marvin Rosenthal — though a very welcomed shift away from pre-tribism — still suffers from some of the same problems inherent to the pre-trib position. For instance, Paul says:

    1 Thess 4:15-17, “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

    Paul is very careful to show us that the dead in Christ are resurrected first, and then those of us who are alive and remain (survive) are caught up with them. The obvious question is when does this resurrection happen? John tells us in Revelation:

    Revelation 20:4-5, “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years… This [is] the first resurrection.”

    The dead in Christ that rise first are caught up in the First Resurrection, which is after the tribulation according to John in Rev 20:4-5. The logical implications of the plain and straightforward teachings of the text is undeniable: If the First Resurrection is after the tribulation then there can be no resurrection before the end of the tribulation, and if there is no resurrection before the end of the tribulation then there is therefore no rapture before the end tribulation. Pre-tribism and pre-wrath (which puts the rapture closer to the “middle” of the tribulation) are impossible. According to Scripture, the rapture can only happen after tribulation.

    The only way for the pre-trib and pre-wrath positions to get around this dilemma is to somehow contend that there are “phases” to the First Resurrection, but when we draw that suggestion out to its logical conclusion it is essentially stating that the rapture takes place before the First Resurrection is even fully completed, yet Scripture is clear that we who are alive and remain will by no means precede those who are asleep in Christ. The dead in Christ rise first, and then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them. According to Revelation 20:4 there are obviously still those who are dead in Christ at the end of the tribulation who will be raised in the First Resurrection, thus showing us that the rapture and Second Coming are married together as one singular event.

    Jack Smith, “I interpret Islam’s dominion of the world to take place during the time of the wrath of God not the wrath of satan, i.e., the last 3.5 years of the tribulation wll be the time the world is under his dominion. This would mean that Christians are no longer present on earth when the dominion takes place.”

    That is Rosenthal’s pre-wrath position. But here’s something for your consideration, which is one of the reasons why I adhere to a post-trib/pre-wrath stance. Let’s begin by looking at all the verses which tell us that we are not appointed to wrath, or are saved from wrath:

    1 Thess 1:10, “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

    1 Thess 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”

    Romans 5:9, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”

    Eph 5:6, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

    Next, let’s look at the Greek word specifically used for “wrath” in each of these verses to better understand what we are studying:

    1 Thess 1:10, — The wrath that we will be delivered from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    1 Thess 5:9, — The wrath that we are not appointed to is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    Romans 5:9, — The wrath that we are saved from is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    Eph 5:6, — The wrath upon those who are disobedient is the Greek “orge” (G3709).

    Easy enough. We are saved from, or not appointed to suffer, the “orge” wrath of God. Now let’s examine the “wrath” that is described in Revelation. The word “wrath” itself is found 13 times in English translations of Revelation, but in the Greek text the word translated as “wrath” is not just from the Greek word “orge”. It is from two separate words: “orge” and “thymos.” The “orge” of God that we are promised to be saved from according to each verse above is only found six times. And here’s the kicker — each time “orge” is used it is always in a post-trib context only:

    1 and 2. It is mentioned after the cosmic signs and the revealing of Christ Jesus (Rev 6:16-17). Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms that these signs happen immediately after the tribulation (Matt 24:29).

    3. It is found after the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:18). (When the 7th and last trump begins to sound we find the rapture described in Revelation 10).

    4. It is used to describe the final torment of unbelievers in hell (Rev 14:10).

    5. It is found after the seventh bowl (Rev 16:19). (The trumpets and bowls are two sides of the same coin. They are separate descriptions of the same event. The trumpets are the cause and the bowls are the effect).

    6. It is used in connection with Christ’s Second Coming (Rev 19:15).

    Moreover, according to Revelation the thymos wrath is directed upon a very specific group only — the Antichrist, his land, his kingdom, those who have received the Mark of the Beast, those who worship the image of the Beast, those who have shed the blood of the saints (see Rev 16). Those upon whom the bowls of thymos are being poured are still given the opportunity to repent, but they refuse (Rev 9:20-21; 16:9-11). But when the orge wrath comes, however, there is no such provision for repentance. I believe that we will be here on earth witnessing these events right up until the beginning of the post-trib seventh and last trumpet, at which point we are gathered to Christ just before the orge wrath. Hence, post-trib/pre-wrath.

    This, therefore, is telling us that the orge wrath that we are saved from is not the same type of wrath that we find during the Great Tribulation. It is only immediately after the tribulation at the Second Coming of Christ. As such, even if the rapture does not happen until immediately after the tribulation we are still saved from the “orge” of God as promised, yet still be present to witness the “thymos” wrath of the first six trumpets/bowls upon the Antichrist, his kingdom, and his people.

    The Difference Between “Orge” and “Thymos” Wrath

    So, what’s the difference between “orge” wrath and “thymos” wrath? We should first be aware that some incorrectly assume that these two words have essentially the same meaning, however if that were the case then why did the Holy Spirit inspire the writers of the New Testament to use them both, and at times why were they both used in the same verse? Obviously, though they could have similar meanings they must, therefore, be qualitatively distinct. Here are some examples where they are both used in the same verse:

    Col 3:8 – “But now ye also put off all these; anger (orge), wrath (thymos), malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth”

    Rev 14:10, “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath (thymos) of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation (orge); and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”

    Rev 16:19 – And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness (thymos) of his wrath (orge).”

    thymos – sudden passionate anger; anger boiling up and subsiding again
    orge – deliberate anger; indignation; hostile vengeance

    Truth be told, the trumpets are themselves not even called wrath anywhere at all really. As I mentioned above, however, I view the trumpets/bowls as opposite sides of the same coin where the trumpet is the cause and the bowl is the effect. So knowing that the bowls are called the thymos wrath of God associates, to me, the trumpets with thymos wrath as well.

    Every time in Scripture we read that we as believers are not appointed to wrath, or will be delivered from wrath, it is always the orge of God which is found in a post-trib context only. In this orge the anger will not subside, it will not abate. It is not a punishment to chasten and invoke repentance like thymos, because when the orge of God comes it is then too late.

    Jack Smith, “When the orignal writers used the phrase ‘whole world,’ it seems to me that what they had in mind was the world as they understood it. What they did not know existed could harldy be referred to in the passage.”

    They were thinking of the world that they knew, I’m sure. But that doesn’t alter the usage of synecdochic language of the text. Daniel said to Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2:36b-38, for example, that “… The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all…” Daniel doesn’t seem to be limiting Nebuchadnezzar’s rule only to what Daniel knew existed, and I don’t think we’re expected to reasonably conclude that not one single living thing existed in the Americas during this time. This is an obvious figure of speech, for there were known areas outside of Nebuchadnezzar’s domain. As such, I believe it is reasonable to expect similar language being employed by John in Revelation, the sister book of Daniel, using terminology and expressions reminiscent of the prophetic texts of the Old Testament. Also see Colossians 1:23. Paul understood that there were more than just people who lived in the land.

    Jack Smith, “Also, think about the phrase ‘remote north’ used in Ezekiel 38 and 39. Many of us interpret that phrase to refer to Russia (I do, anyway). Russia is not in the Middle East, yet, we interpret Russia to be the superpower country that will join w nations of the Middle East against Israel in the end-times. How is it that we can interpret Russia to be the “remote north” nation in Ezekiel 38/39 when it was not even known to exist when the prophets gave prophecy for it …”

    Well, I think that this is a bit different. Here we have Ezekiel referring to a more specific “north” location, geographically, and not using any form of synecdochical language. Personally, I’m not convinced that Russia is directly mentioned in the Gog of Magog war of Ezekiel 38 and 39. Aside from “remote north”, the word that many often point to in an effort to suggest that Russia is mentioned specifically here is the word “rosh” (H7218) in 38:2, but this word simply means “chief” or “head”, as in Rosh Hashanah (Head of the Year). Nowhere in the whole of Scripture has “rosh” ever referred to Russia.

    If we consider Gog of Magog and the “known world” from Ezekiel’s time and perspective, however, the far north would likely bring us all the way up to the Black Sea and the northern shores of modern day Turkey to areas northeast of Turkey, even to northern Iran and Afghanistan and beyond where we find other former Soviet Republics. It is my view that we are likely looking at northern nations/peoples/fighters from Turkey, Azerbaijan, Dagestan and possibly even Chechnya, and across the Caspian Sea to Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan. In these areas, Islam is the dominant religion. This does not mean that Russia will not be involved, however. After all, there are “many people” or “nations” with Gog according to 38:6, and Russia could be one of them in some way, shape or form. But Russia is not mentioned by name specifically at all in the text, imho.

    I’m enjoying this discussion and bouncing various views off one another. God bless! …

    Like

  36. FX
    04/26/2012 at 2:15 AM

    Bonjour & Shalom from France !

    Great discussion indeed!

    I would highly recommend Joel’s Richardson newest book, “Mideast Beast: The Scriptural Case for an Islamic Antichrist” (pre-release copies are due on May 1) where he covers most of the issues brought forth in the above discussion. Joel’s approach is sound and he writes with great passion. His last book is really a must read and I’m sure you guys will enjoy this new book!

    I have one question: if you guys were to make estimations (I’m not asking you to set dates!!!) when would you say the possible timeframe for the return of Yeshua is?

    Blessings in the Name of our Savior

    François-Xavier

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  37. james
    04/26/2012 at 9:13 AM

    less than 20 years is my guess: once iran(ancient persia) attacks and conquors its neighbors, daniel 8.4, things could fall in place quickly for the rise of the anti christ/mahdi, who will be the little horn arising after the turkish lead sunni counter conquest against the shias (iran). we could be on the brink of a rapid reshuffling of the islamic nations, which will create the conditions for their mahdi to appear: stop fighting one another, unite and attack israel.

    gentlemen: please correct me if this assessement is flawed! have a great day everyone!

    Like

  38. FX
    04/26/2012 at 9:53 AM

    Thank you for your input James. It sure makes sense and fits with the different reckonings out there.

    There is an interesting book out there called “2012-2015, the season of the return?” (http://www.theseasonofreturn.com/). The author puts forward many interesting points showing that the above time frame could be the time frame of the return of Yeshua. Having said that, he clearly says in the introduction that his aim is not to set dates, but to look at the interesting facts that could point to this window of time.

    I used to think the year 2015 could be a possibility, but looking at the way the events are unfolding in the world right now, for 2015 to be the year of the return of our King, we would need to see Israel attacked on occupied by the antichrist, since the Bible says he will reign from Jerusalem for the last 3,5 years of this world (as we know it).

    There are another 8 months to go, so we could still get surprises, but the more we go on, the more I think His return will be further down the road.

    Having said that, there are two important issues we need to look at. The first one is the “tetrad” solar and lunar eclipses that fall in 2014 and 2015 on the days of the Biblical Feats (are you guys familiar with Mark Blitz discoveries on this particular issue?). Surely these signs in the sky are signalling something important that is bond to take place in 2015.

    The second issue is the Jubilee one. We lost the exact dates of the original jubilee year, but the author of 2012-2015 book comes forward with some very interesting guesses/calculations pointing to the year 2015-16 as being the next Jubilee year. As he shows, the previous two jubilees in 1917-1918 and 1966-67 had to do with Jerusalem and its liberation (a clear theme appearing in the book of Leviticus regarding the Jubilee year!). In 1917, General Allenby freed Jerusalem and in 1967, after the 6 days war, Jerusalem Est was retaken by the Jews.
    Could 2016 be the next Jubilee year? If so, will Yeshua come back then?

    Recently I found an interesting website (http://www.120jubilees.org/) which proposes the next Jubliee date as being around the year 2036 (hence, this person thinks that the last week spoken by Daniel, will be from 2029-2036). It also makes sense!

    Future will tell us…One think for sure, the next years ranging from now to 2036 are going to be very exciting and interesting to witness!

    Grace, mercy and peace

    FX

    Like

    • james
      04/26/2012 at 8:24 PM

      fx,

      in your estimation: how serious is the moslem problem in france?

      how long do you think it will take for them to take over your country and europe as a whole?

      when this likely catastrophe takes place, we may have to have another look at daniel 2 and the roman endtime paradigm: simply calling it the roman/islamic or roman/arabic paradigm??

      by the way everyone i made contact today with marc davidson the author of “Hidden In Plain Sight” a study of pretribulational events, and took it upon myself :) to invite him to participate on this blog! so hopefully we will see him posting soon:

      ICA: he very much liked your article yesterday on Iran.

      God’s peace and joy be multiplied to all.

      james

      Like

  39. ICA
    04/26/2012 at 11:30 AM

    FX, “I have one question: if you guys were to make estimations (I’m not asking you to set dates!!!) when would you say the possible timeframe for the return of Yeshua is?”

    I think on or just before Yom Kippur. During a Jubilee year. In our lifetime. :)

    Like

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  1. 04/23/2012 at 12:15 PM

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