Iran, Israel, and Nuclear Weapons – The World’s First Step Into the Tribulation?
By Jack Smith
Is there Biblical evidence to support Iran obtaining nuclear weapons in the end-times? If so, who will be Iran’s target? Israel? Another nation? The answer will surprise you!
Iran and Israel have filled the news lately. With the threat of a nuclear Iran, the world’s questions have changed from whether Israel will take action to when Israel will take action. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barach recently stated (February 3, 2012), “A nuclear Iran will be more complicated to deal with, more dangerous and more costly in blood than if it were stopped today,” he said. “In other words, he who says in English ‘later’ may find that ‘later is too late.’”
World leaders are concerned of the impact of Israeli action against Iran on the entire world, even to the launching of World War 3. The recent veto by China and Russia of the United Nations Resolution urging President Bashar al-Assad of Syria to step down (initiated by the Arab League), reveals that “sides” are being drawn. Iran’s official news agency (FARSNews) reported on January 21, 2012, that Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has “warned the US and Israel to stop threatening Iran, saying that military action against the Islamic Republic would cause an unpredictable chain reaction throughout the region.” One international news source (NZHerald.co.nz, February 6, 2012) reported, “For the first time in nearly two decades of escalating tensions over Iran’s nuclear programme, world leaders are genuinely concerned that an Israeli military attack on the Islamic Republic could be imminent – an action that many fear might trigger a wider war, terrorism and global economic havoc.”
In an NBC interview with President Barak Obama (February 5, 2012), the US President stated, “The US is working closely with Israel to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power.” The President added: “I’ve been very clear – we’re going to do everything we can to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon and creating a nuclear arms race in a volatile region.” Nevertheless, it seems Israel is not very confident with the President’s “resolve.” On February 3, 2012, the Jerusalem Post reported a statement by Israeli Vice Premier Moshe Ya’alon, “We [Israel] need a credible military option. The Iranians understand the West has capabilities, but as long as the Iranians don’t think that the West has the political stomach and determination to use it they will not stop,” Ya’alon said. “Currently they [Iran] don’t think that the world is determined.”
Sunni Arab Gulf Leaders and Iran. The threat of Iran has caused Sunni Arab Gulf leaders to call for Arab unity against Iran. Reuter’s (December 20, 2011 ) reports, “Gulf Arab leaders … broadly endorsed Saudi King Abdullah’s [Saudi Arabia] call to form a “single entity” in what appeared to be an attempt to form a more united front against a perceived threat from Iran. The goal of greater union is enshrined in the six-nation Gulf Cooperation Council’s 1981 founding charter, but has only been given impetus by the mass uprisings that have reshaped the power balance in the Middle East, as well as fears of a newly assertive non-Arab, Shi’ite Iran across the Strait of Hormuz.” The Arab Gulf states moved further towards that unity, when, on February 7, 2012, they expelled Syrian ambassadors in their countries and recalled their envoys from Syria. Six Arab states make up the powerful “Gulf Cooperation Council” (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman).
Saudi Arabia and Iran. On October 11, 2011, the United States Department of Justice filed a criminal complaint in the Southern District of New York charged two men, both having connections with the government of Iran, with attempted murder of the Saudi Ambassador to the United States, Sheik Adel al-Jubeir. Manssor Arbabsiar, a 56-year-old naturalized U.S. citizen (holding both Iranian and U.S. passports), and Gholam Shakuri, an Iran-based member of Iran’s al-Quds Force (a special operations unit of the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps) were charged. Shakuri remains at large and Arbabsiar was arrested on Sept. 29, 2011, at New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport.
Recently, the New York Times reported (December 6, 2011) that Prince Turki al-Faisal of Saudi Arabia suggested that, if Iran obtains nuclear weapons, a nuclear arms race in the Middle East would begin. Saudi Arabia would have no choice but to join the race. With Israel having already obtained nuclear weapons, and Iran gaining them, the leadership of Saudi Arabia would be negligent not to immediately pursue the acquisition of nuclear weapons.
In a recent post by MidnightWatcher’s Blogspot, renowned author Walid Shoebat stated, “Iran will gain its nuclear weapons.” Shoebat offers Isaiah 21 as support for his statement. Isaiah 21:2f provides in part,
A harsh vision has been shown to me; The treacherous one still deals treacherously, and the destroyer still destroys. Go up, Elam [Persia], lay siege, Media [Persia]; I have made an end of all the groaning she has caused.… 9 Now behold, here comes a troop of riders, horsemen in pairs.” And one said, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon; And all the images of her gods are shattered on the ground… 13 The oracle about Arabia. In the thickets of Arabia you must spend the night, O caravans of Dedanites. 14 Bring water for the thirsty, O inhabitants of the land of Tema, Meet the fugitive with bread. 15 For they have fled from the swords, From the drawn sword, and from the bent bow And from the press of battle. 16 For thus the Lord said to me, “In a year, as a hired man would count it, all the splendor of Kedar will terminate; 17 and the remainder of the number of bowmen, the mighty men of the sons of Kedar, will be few; for the LORD God of Israel has spoken.”
Shoebat interprets “Babylon” in verse 21:9 to be a reference to Saudi Arabia, whom he also interprets to be the “harlot” of Revelation 17 and 18. Arabia is mentioned multiple times in the prophecy: as “Dedanites” (v 21:13), “inhabitants of the land of Tema” (v 21:14), and “Kedar” (v 21:17). Shoebat interprets Saudi Arabia as the “daughter” of Babylon, and in need of our focus.
This writer concurs, in part, with Shoebat’s interpretation. Isaiah 21:11-17 is an oracle against Arabia and her coming destruction. Persia (Iran), however, is not mentioned in Isaiah 21:11-17 but in 21:1-10. That part of the oracle is a specific prophecy that Persia (Elam and Media) will wage war against Babylon. This oracle was fulfilled in 689 B.C. when the city was completely destroyed by Sennacherib and the Assyrian army; but the city was rebuilt by Sennacherib’s son. In 539 B.C., Darius the Mede captured Babylon (Daniel 5:31), but he did not destroy it. In 339 B.C., Alexander the Great destroyed the city. It has not been rebuilt even to the modern day (in fulfillment of Isaiah 14:22-23). (See Bible Exposition Commentary (BE Series) – Old Testament – The Bible Exposition Commentary – The Prophets).
This writer concurs with Shoebat that Persia (Iran) will wage war against “Babylon” (the “harlot” of Revelation 17/18). However, my Biblical support is quite different from that of Shoebat. “Babylon” is the “mystical name” (Revelation 17:5) for the birthplace of Islam, Saudi Arabia. My support for this conclusion is detailed in chapters 11 and 12 of my book, Islam the Cloak of Antichrist. The highlights of my view follows:
1. Persia is first mentioned in King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of Daniel 2:36-45. There, Persia is the “inferior” kingdom which destroys Babylon (fulfilled by Darius the Mede in 539 B.C.). However, the prophecy has a “dual fulfillment” in the end-times. Characteristics to identify the final kingdom are found in Daniel 2:41-43. The final kingdom is Islam, and the many reasons for this conclusion form what has come to be known as the “Islamic Paradigm.” This writer takes the Islamic Paradigm a step further to interpret Shi’ite Islam as the specific hand of the antichrist in the end-times. Some of the reasons for this interpretation are:
- Shi’ite Muslims “combine in the seed of men” (through Ali (Muhammad’s closest surviving male blood descendant) and Fatima, Muhammad’s daughter married to Ali);
- Shi’ites do not “adhere to one another.” Shi’ites have historically been unable to find unity even within their own sect of Islam. Shi’ites cannot agree on the legitimate blood descendant who qualifies to be their leader, i.e., “Imam.” Shi’ites require two conditions to be met for legitimate leadership: 1 – blood descent through Ali and Fatima; and 2 – being “designated” as successor (called “Nass”) by the preceding Imam prior to the preceding Imam’s death. Because of Sunni persecution of Shi’ites, particularly the Imams of Shi’ism, the Imams frequently did not “designate” their successor prior to untimely death. The result was that Shi’ites bifurcated into multiple branches within Shi’ism based on the particular Imam each considered legitimate. “Fivers” believe that the fifth Imam is the last legitimate Imam, “Seveners” believe that the seventh Imam is the last legitimate Imam, and “Twelvers” believe that the 12th Imam is the last legitimate Imam. Among the different branches of Shiism, persecution has occurred due to the inability to agree on the legitimate Imam. (See Islam the Cloak of Antichrist, p 66 – 67).
- There are two “parts” in Islam, a weak part and a strong part (Daniel 2:42). Shi’ites are the “weak part” (10% of Muslims). Sunnis are the “strong part” (90% of Muslims). Shi’ites have been the weaker sect of Islam since the death of Muhammad in 632 A.D., when Sunnis successfully appointed the first caliph of Islam over the objections of the followers of Ali (Shi’ites); and ever since the battle of Karbala in 680 A.D., they have been mercilessly persecuted by Sunnis, the stronger sect of Islam (Arabs are predominantly Sunni Muslims. Iran is predominantly Shi’ite Muslims).
2. Shi’ites fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 7:8:
- Daniel 7:8 states, “another horn, a little one, came up among them [the ten horns of the 4th beast], and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it…” Shi’ites fulfill this prophecy specifically. After the Battle of Karbala in 680 A.D. (against the Sunnis), Shi’ites refused to accept the first three caliphs of Islam as legitimate leaders of Islam because they were not blood related to Muhammad. Shi’ites retroactively annulled the first three caliphs of Islam (the “Rightly Guided Caliphs”), and effectively rewrote Muslim history for Shi’ites. They retroactively replaced the first three caliphs with their own Imams, all of which were blood descendants of Ali and Fatima. The three replacements were Ali (Imam from 632 – 661 A.D.), Hasan (Ali and Fatima’s first son; Imam for 661 A.D.), and Husayn (Ali and Fatima’s second son; Imam for 661 – 680 A.D.). All three replacements were already dead when they were named Imams (caliphs). Their retroactive appointment by Shi’ites was a fulfillment of Daniel 7:8 because the first three historical caliphs were “pulled out by the roots” as if they never existed for Shi’ites. See Islam the Cloak of Antichrist, p 72 – 74.
Daniel 2:44-45 prophesies that this final kingdom will be “crushed” by the hand of God in the end-times; but before it is crushed, it must fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 7:23, “… it will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it”; and Revelation 13:8, “… and all who dwell on the earth will worship him [the deity of the false religion, i.e., Allah], everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.”
First Conclusion: Shi’ite Islam (Iran) will initiate the tribulation of the last days in fulfillment of Bible prophecy. In the modern-day context, this means that Shi’ite Islam will obtain nuclear weapons. Iran is the Shi’ite nation most likely to fulfill this prophecy in the modern day.
Revelation 18 describes the “fallout” of the weapons used in this end-time conflict:
1. Destruction will be quick—in one hour (Revelation 18:10, 17, 19).
2. No one will come near her (the Harlot, i.e., Saudi Arabia) for fear of being impacted by what torments her (Revelation 18:10, 15, 17).
3. Her destruction will be accompanied by “pestilence” (Revelation 18:8).
4. Her destruction will include a “fiery annihilation” (Revelation 18:8, 9, 15, 18).
5. Her destruction will be accompanied by great amounts of smoke (Revelation 18:9,18:19:3).
6. Her kingdom will suffer a complete destruction (Revelation 18:6, 7, 14, 19, 20, 21).
7. Her destruction will somehow involve the “cup which she has mixed” (Revelation 18:6).
Second conclusion: a nuclear or similar weapon will be used in the attack by the “scarlet beast” (Shi’ite Islam) against the “harlot.” The logical conclusion is that Israel’s pre-emptive attack will not be in time to stop the procurement and use of nuclear weapons.
Who will be the object of attack? As detailed in Islam the Cloak of Antichrist (pp. 210-233), the object of Iran’s initial aggression will be Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabian petroleum will be the specific resource that motivates this assault. Saudi Arabia is the world’s #1 possessor of petroleum reserves. If Iran obtains Saudi petroleum reserves, it will have sufficient strength to put the world in a state of economic chaos. It is through this chaos that the tribulation will begin. Further, Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Islam; and Islam is, historically, “drunk with the blood of the saints.” Here is a summary of the characteristics of Revelation 17/18 that Saudi Arabia fulfills (see Islam the Cloak of Antichrist, p. 217):
1. The harlot’s “wine” has made the merchants of the world wealthy and great (Rev. 18:3, 15, 19, 23).
2. The harlot is pictured as the epitome of wealth (Rev. 17:4).
3. The harlot possesses something that the entire world desires and, in fact, is addicted to (Rev. 14:8; 17:2; 18:3).
4. The harlot “sits” on “seven mountains” (Rev. 17:9).
5. The harlot is blinded by her own arrogance; she believes her “fruit” will never depart (Rev. 18:5, 7).
6. The harlot is called “Babylon the Great,” and her use of wealth is likened to an immorality (Rev. 17:5).
7. The kings of the earth have committed “immorality” with the harlot (Rev. 17:2; 18:3).
8. The harlot will be hated by those with whom she is associated. Her associates will destroy her in one hour (Rev. 17:16; 18:10, 17).
9. The harlot is drunk with the blood of the saints and the witnesses of Jesus (Rev. 17:6).
It was from the bowels of Arabia that the persecution of the woman, Israel, and “those who hold to the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 12:17) was first launched. This persecution began in the 7th century A.D. and has resulted in the Middle East being effectively “cut off” (Daniel 9:26) from Christianity.
When will the Iranian attack occur? No one can know the precise date or formulae that must take place to usher in this conflict. However, Revelation 17:3 tells us that the scarlet beast (Shi’ite Islam) has ten horns. The ten horns are defined by Revelation 17:12-13,
“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. “These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.”
There will be ten nations/groups (Sunni, Shi’ite, or non-Muslim) who will join forces with Shi’ite Islam (Iran) to launch an assault against Saudi Arabia. The alignment that will be formed will be by nations not “normally” aligned with one another. The Scripture states that it is the “common purpose” that causes the alignment of these ten nations/groups (Revelation 17:13; 16-17), and that they will be aligned for “one hour.” This “one hour” alignment is the same period that Scripture prophesies that the harlot, i.e., Saudi Arabia, will be destroyed (Revelation 18:10, 17:19). The point is that the alignment will serve only this purpose. There are not, at present, ten Shi’ite nations and/or groups that might align as one. This means that Sunni Arab nations/groups will join with the Shi’ite group in order for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Nations that are likely to join in this alignment might include the following:
Russia (publicly allied with Iran; vetoed Arab League sanctions against Shi’ite Syr), China (publicly allied with Iran, and joined Russia to veto Arab League U.N. resolution against Syria’s al-Assad), Turkey (currently assisting Iran in avoiding financial consequences of U.S. led economic sanctions), Iraq (Shi’ite), Syria’s Bashar al-Assad (Alawite Shi’ite) and a long-time ally of Iran, Hezbollah (Shi’ite, and funded by Iran; located in Lebanon); Sunni Muslim nations of North Africa, including Somali and Sudan, Libya, and Ethiopia (Ezekiel 38:5).
Nations not likely to join but who could join in order to bring the total to the ten required of Scripture are those of the Gulf Coordinating Council of which Saudi Arabia is the lead nation: Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Kuwait, and Oman.
Where is Israel? We cannot know whether an attack against Israel will precede that of Saudi Arabia because Scripture, at least from this writer’s perspective, does not give us a timeline of events in the Tribulation period, but rather, only an occurrence of events. Scripture does tell us that Israel will be attacked, and for a time, forty-two months, will succumb to the attack. See Ezekiel 38:8-9; 15-16; Revelation 11:2.
Difficult days are ahead for the word regardless of whether the target of nuclear weapons is Saudi Arabia or Israel, and regardless of which nation is the first target. This also the case if Israel wages a pre-emptive attack on Iran. All of these events will likely mushroom into world economic chaos and World War 3. The good news is that the final Word is that of the Lord:
Revelation 19:1-2 (NASB) 1 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2 BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.”
Very interesting article, Jack. Clear and concise explanation of the splintering of Shi-ites and their division from Sunnis. Most of what you wrote is biblically defensible–I like your differentiation between Isa 21:1-10 and 21:11-17. I don’t however concur with your understanding of Dan 9:26 “after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing” means that the Middle East will be cut off from Christianity – the subject is clearly the Messiah and I think indisputably refers to the crucifixion.
One thing is without a doubt – events are SPEEDING by quickly. May we be faithful witnesses of the truth.
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I also meant to comment on “dual fulfillments” – in a word, I don’t believe in them. Prophecy is fulfilled one time. On the other hand, and I’m not splitting hairs, there are certainly fore-shadowings, such as Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac being a type of the Father sacrificing the Son, or even Antiochus Epiphanes being a shadow or type of Antichrist.
What is the biblical justification for “dual fulfillments”? Please give me a clear biblical example of this, i.e., Paul or Jesus refers to a single prophecy being fulfilled in two ways, two different times, by two different people, etc.
The challenge goes out to anybody – I’m open to changing my mind, but I just don’t see it.
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“Dual fulfillment” in my opinion is a loose term that may often refer to one fulfillment as a type (near), followed by its completion in the fullness of time (far). For example, I don’t think that anyone would deny that Antiochus Epiphanes was a type of Antichrist or “Abomination of Desolation”. Additionally, we’d be hard pressed to find someone who would deny that Al Aqsa Mosque is also an “Abomination of Desolation”, one which today still stands where the temple once stood, full of blasphemies upon its walls that explicitly deny the Father and the Son, a symbol of a religion that has utterly desolated North Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia throughout its 1400 year history. But is it *the* Abomination of Desolation?
There are also examples of “dual fulfillment” where a similar situation keeps occurring in history. For instance, in Deuteronomy 28:49-50 a prophecy warns Israel that if they forsake God He will “bring a nation against you from afar … of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young”. This was fulfilled with Assyria, with Babylon, and even with Rome in 70 AD. Who else will fulfill it?
I would also contend that one prophecy could be fulfilled in two or more near/far parts. One example, as you are aware, is the prophecy from Isaiah below:
Isaiah 61:1-3, “The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, and provide for those who grieve in Zion–to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his splendor.”
Christ Himself said that the first half of Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled with Him during His first coming (Luke 4:17-19). The second half will not be fulfilled until His second coming. But even during His second coming, will not the first half again see fulfillment with the good news being preached to the poor (Rev 14:6), with the mending of the brokenhearted (Rev 7:17), and with freedom proclaimed for the captives and deliverance from darkness (Rom 11:26)?
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Kurt Daniel has many – (my understanding) One example is Cyrus – he was the one who made the decree in 536 BC but he is not the one that fulfilled it – it was fulfilled many years later by Artaxerxes in 445 BC – yet we are told that it would be Cyrus which is true in the sense that it originated because of his decree.
The dual side comes in when 2520 biblical years later the UN made a decree 181 in Nov 1947 that Israel would once again be allowed to return home and build a nation. So is this a dual prophecy or not – I think it is – Just like the Daughter of Babylon (Iraq) was reborn again 2520 years after just prior to the return of Israel to the land. There are many more but you heard this from me before. Do we simply say Oh well that was a coincident ??
2Ch 36:22 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing
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Kurt – “Dual fulfillment” is really not the main issue of the article; Persia is. Nevertheless in response to your point, Daniel 8 has dual fulfillment. Daniel 8:1-14 is the king’s vision of the ram and the goat; first fulfilled when Media-Persia was defeated by Greece, Alexander the Great(339BC, I think). Antiochus is first prophesied there as the little horn that “comes up among the four” (Daniel 8:9-12). The passage then uses this fulfillment as a “type” to help identify the future prophecy for the “appointed time of the end” (8:19). Verse 23 states, “and in the latter period of their rule” which has to relate to v 8:19, the “…time of the end,” not to Alexander the Great’s time.
You also mentioned the “cutting off of Christianity” from the Middle East. You are quite correct; my view of Daniel 9:26 is clearly not the traditional view; and, it has its weaknesses, I admit. In the whole of Biblical prophecy, it “fits” with the “other pieces.” I see it fufilled not when Jersualem falls to the Romans (or when Christ was crucified by the Romans), but when Constantinople fell to the “people of the prince who is to come,” the Muslims, 1453 A.D; and not the destruction of the “sanctuary” (the Temple)in 70 AD, but the fall of the GREAT Hagia Sophia, the Church of the East, and Sultan Mehmet’s absolute closing of the door of the Middle East to Christianity.
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Jack – I agree with you on the dual prophecy first part – Dan 8 refers to time of the end, day of wrath, appointed time – I see that the first time Persia and Greece came as empires the second time as nations – we can see a revived Greece in the Arab spring and Perisa in Iran
WE are the odd man out but this is what Daniel tell us his interpertation is in Dan 8
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ICA: “Dual fulfillment” in my opinion is a loose term that may often refer to one fulfillment as a type (near), followed by its completion in the fullness of time (far).
I don’t think it’s a loose term—it means one specific prophecy has two fulfillments. For instance, if Isa 9:6, “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” referred to Jesus AND someone else, that would be a “dual fulfillment” (DF). But this is never the case, at least as I have found so far, including Jack’s, Willard’s and your responses to my questions.
ICA: For example, I don’t think that anyone would deny that Antiochus Epiphanes was a type of Antichrist or “Abomination of Desolation”.
No, I would not deny he is a type, but the specific prophecy about him was fulfilled by him. Yes he is a type, but the future (or currently here, as we all seem to agree upon) AC will not fulfill again the same prophecies made about him in Dan 8:9-14 or Dan 11:1-32.
ICA: Additionally, we’d be hard pressed to find someone who would deny that Al Aqsa Mosque is also an “Abomination of Desolation”, one which today still stands where the temple once stood, full of blasphemies upon its walls that explicitly deny the Father and the Son, a symbol of a religion that has utterly desolated North Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia throughout its 1400 year history. But is it *the* Abomination of Desolation?
I think you mean “Al Sakhrah” Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, but yes, it is a sign of AoD which began in 70 AD. We are currently still in the AoD, due to the fact that there is no physical temple (yes, we are the spiritual temple) and the Jews have no relationship with Yahweh, except those who are part of the ekklesia, Spiritual Israel. But the DotR is a physical sign of the AoD, yes.
ICA: There are also examples of “dual fulfillment” where a similar situation keeps occurring in history. For instance, in Deuteronomy 28:49-50 a prophecy warns Israel that if they forsake God He will “bring a nation against you from afar … of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young”. This was fulfilled with Assyria, with Babylon, and even with Rome in 70 AD. Who else will fulfill it?
This is as close to DF as any of you come in defending the concept of DF, but that’s not what I think is going on. These are conditional promises from God that are principal and behavior-based; if His people changed their behaviors, God would relent and restore blessing. If they did not, He would bring judgment. This is not DF per my Isa 9:6 example above.
ICA: I would also contend that one prophecy could be fulfilled in two or more near/far parts. One example, as you are aware, is the prophecy from Isaiah below:
Isaiah 61:1-3, “The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, and provide for those who grieve in Zion–to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his splendor.”
That’s not how I see that. Yes I agree that the entire verse, in two parts, is fulfilled at two different times, (which does lend support to those who see Dan 9:27 being split into two different time periods), but one cannot conclude that a single prophecy is being fulfilled twice when the first part of prophecy is fulfilled at one time and the second part is fulfilled at another.
A verse pops into my mind regarding DF, which admittedly deals with a different topic, 1 Cor 14:8: “For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? So also you, unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear, how will it be known what is spoken?” This deals with the gift of other languages, but its the same with prophecy – if we can’t know that a prophecy has definitely and completely been fulfilled once, how do we know its been fulfilled at all? How can we have assurance that when scripture proclaims a prediction it has definitely come true? There’s probably a more eloquent way to make the point, but I think you get my meaning.
Jack: In response to your point, Daniel 8 has dual fulfillment. Daniel 8:1-14 is the king’s vision of the ram and the goat; first fulfilled when Media-Persia was defeated by Greece, Alexander the Great(339BC, I think). Antiochus is first prophesied there as the little horn that “comes up among the four” (Daniel 8:9-12). The passage then uses this fulfillment as a “type” to help identify the future prophecy for the “appointed time of the end” (8:19). Verse 23 states, “and in the latter period of their rule” which has to relate to v 8:19, the “…time of the end,” not to Alexander the Great’s time.
I’m sorry Jack, I don’t agree. I think many (not all) misunderstand “time of the end” and similar phrases to mean “the absolute end of the age, i.e., the last few years and Day”. No, this is not what is meant. Dan 8 is fulfilled several hundred years from when the prophecy is made, more than qualifying it in many of our minds to be “the time of the end” from Daniel’s POV. Is AE a type of the AC? Yes. Is it a DF? Per my rationale above, no.
I’m not trying to be a spoil-sporty, kill joy, but I think it is important that we stand for the truth of scriptural prophecy and part of that is the understanding that when a prophecy is fulfilled, its fulfilled.
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kurt – I would have to disagree on this one with you – how would you explain the fact that “the other horn grew up later”
Da 8:3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. ………..One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later
OR …….. Da 8:17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me,……………….. “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end
OR time of wrath and the end – when was the wrath in history ………… Da 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end
OR when was the latter part of their reign …… Da 8:23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise.
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Willard: I would have to disagree on this one with you – how would you explain the fact that “the other horn grew up later”
Da 8:3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. ………..One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later
The ram that has two horns represents the Medes and Persians. We know this because later in the chapter we are explicitly told: The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia (Dan 8:20). The horn which grew higher and later represents the Persians, who under Cyrus, were raised above the Medes.
Willard: OR …….. Da 8:17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me,……………….. “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end
If you’re referring to the phrase “the time of the end”, as I explained above, from Daniel’s perspective, this is simply the future. To buttress this interpretation I will appeal to the apostles, who believed that they were in the end times, and in fact they were, because beginning with the Advent, the “End, End Times” had begun. For instance, Heb 1:1-2: God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. Or listen to Peter in 1 Pet 1:20: For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you. I see no need to override the other plain factors in interpreting a verse just because the words “end time” are used.
Willard: OR time of wrath and the end – when was the wrath in history ………… Da 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.
These are the words of the “one who looked like a man” (v15); this man immediately after v19, which you’ve quoted, goes on to explain that the two-horned ram is Media and Persia (v20), while the shaggy goat is Greece (v21). So the “appointed time of the end” simply meant the future from Daniel’s perspective, because we know from history this is exactly what happened–the Persians became stronger than the Medes, and Greece overthrew Persia. It’s not that mysterious. Furthermore, this rather simple explanation does no damage to the “eastern paradigm” we both believe to be biblical.
The Daniel chapter 7 and chapter 8 “little horns” are two different people. The Dan 7 one is clearly the end, end time (our end times) Antichrist, and the Daniel 8 “rather small horn” (v9) is his fore-shadower, Antiochus Epiphanes.
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I agree with your points on the Media / Persia as we all know this historicaly happened – the point I was trying to make was that I see this as a dual prophecy for Persia – when it says later like I see a revived return for Persia in the end days –
Willard: I would have to disagree on this one with you – how would you explain the fact that “the other horn grew up later
Does it not seem strange that after 2500 years we once again see the ancient empires Assyria, babylon, Persia and Greece acting out similar rolls as nations – The annimosity between each other, all against Israel and the world really but on a nation scale not a empire scale – In a way they are each playing a roll of their ancient history and when that day comes that the ten nations unite under some one they will once again be like or similar to this empire of Ancient Assyria, Babylon, Persia or Greece
I see what you are saying about the disiples regards the end or last days – but every generation had those who expected them in their days 1666 London fire etc etc – I think God wrote the bible in such a way the evry generation could have that expectation – it kept his word living or alive – the living word the eternal hope
You asked the question regards duel fulfilling I supplied my thoughts
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