Home > Radical Islam, Theology and Eschatology > The People of the Prince to Come: A Roman-European Antichrist?

The People of the Prince to Come: A Roman-European Antichrist?


By ICA

Daniel 9:26, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

Many have traditionally believed that since the army that destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD was considered Roman then this, therefore, must mean that according to Daniel 9:26 the Antichrist would rise out of Europe.  The majority of popular Biblical eschatology teachers today, even in light of events happening on the global stage, still teach an Antichrist who comes out of Europe, a charismatic leader that rises from within the European Union to then lead a One World Government.  Writers have published novels such as the “Left Behind” series promoting it, even Christian movies have been inspired and produced by this very idea.  However, although the people of the prince to come mentioned in Daniel 9:26 may have been considered “Roman” soldiers merely because they were (supposedly) under the command of Rome, many of these same teachers have either ignored or were just not aware of the following very significant fact.

The People…

By the time Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD, the Legions responsible for the destruction were dominated by eastern peoples from Syria, Egypt, Asia Minor (Turkey) and that general area.  This is confirmed by Tacitus, Josephus and numerous scholars and historians.  Thus, although the Legions responsible for the destruction of the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD were by that time considered Roman citizens, they were not European people.  (The Wars of The Jews, History of the Destruction of Jerusalem By Flavius Josephus, Trans. William Whiston BOOK V: Chapter 13; and Soldiers, Cities, and Civilians in Roman Syria by Nigel Pollard, Ph.D, p. 115).

Prior to the turn of the 1st Century the majority of the men who served in the Roman armies were Italians.  That is true.  But as the Roman Empire grew it became virtually impossible for it to be manned with only Italian soldiers, so Emperor Augustus was forced to change the ethnic demographic of men who made up the Roman armies, and after the reforms were completed early in the 1st Century just a small part of the Roman army consisted of only Italian men — the Praetorian Guard [1, 2].  The rest of the army was expanding to be increasingly made up of citizens who were from the outer provinces far away from Rome.

Some may say, however, that since Rome gave the order to destroy the city and the sanctuary then Rome is therefore responsible, but this is not the case at all.  Josephus records that Caesar did not want the temple destroyed, writing:

“And now a certain person came running to Titus, and told him of this fire … whereupon he rose up in great haste, and, as he was, ran to the holy house, in order to have a stop put to the fire; after him followed all his commanders, and after them followed the several legions, in great astonishment; so there was a great clamor and tumult raised, as was natural upon the disorderly motion of so great an army. Then did Caesar, both by calling to the soldiers that were fighting, with a loud voice, and by giving a signal to them with his right hand, order them to quench the fire. (Josephus War of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 4).

The soldiers were hell bent on destroying the sanctuary, despite Caesar’s orders to put out the fire.  But they hated the Jews.  And as Josephus later writes, “And thus was the holy house burnt down, without Caesar’s approbation.

History bears witness to the very fact that the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary were almost exclusively Arab/Egyptian/Syrian/Asia Minorian, etc. and from that general area. From Tacitus in The History New Ed edition Book 5.1 Editor: Moses Hadas (Translated by Alfred Church and William Brodribb; Modern Library, 2003 NY):

“Titus Caesar … found in Judaea three legions, the 5th, the 10th, and the 15th .. To these he added the 12th from Syria, and some men belonging to the 18th and 3rd, whom he had withdrawn from Alexandria. This force was accompanied … by a strong contingent of Arabs, who hated the Jews with the usual hatred of neighbors …”

From Josephus in The Complete Works of Josephus, The Wars Of The Jews Or The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem(Book III, Chapter 1):

“So Vespasian sent his son Titus [who], came by land into Syria, where he gathered together the Roman forces, with a considerable number of auxiliaries from the kings in that neighborhood.

In the next chapter Josephus writes:

“Malchus also, the king of Arabia, sent a thousand horsemen, besides five thousand footmen, the greatest part of which were archers; so that the whole army, including the auxiliaries sent by the kings, as well horsemen and footmen, when all were united together, amounted to sixty thousand.

Virtually all Roman scholars concur that the overwhelming majority of soldiers would have been Eastern provincial conscripts by the time Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD.

Additionally, Clarence Larkin in “Dispensational Truth Or God’s Plan and Purpose in the Ages“, which many Western AC proponents consider to be one of the best dispensational authors of all time, disagreed with the now popular Roman theory and through Scripture recognized in his own way why Antichrist cannot come from Europe, writing:

“The ‘King of the North’ was the King of Syria, and his character and conduct is described (Dan. 11:36-39) as similar to that of the ‘Little Horn’ that came out of one of the ‘Four Horns’ it is clear that the Antichrist is to come from Syria… The term ‘North’ and ‘South’ are applied to Syria and Egypt because of their geographic relation to Palestine (the Pleasant of Glorious land. Dan. 8:9, 11:16, 41). In the thought of Jehovah, Jerusalem is at once the geographic and moral centre of the earth. We are to understand therefore by the ‘King of the North’ the King of Syria, which also included Assyria. This fixes the locality from which the Antichrist shall come…” (p. 118)

Since Scripture calls Antichrist “the Assyrian” numerous times throughout the Old Testament, which would hardly be accurate if he were to come from Rome (Zechariah 10:10-12, Isaiah 30:30-31, Micah 5:2-6, Isaiah 10:12-13 cf Daniel 7:20, Isaiah 14:24-25), Clarence Larkin would in all likelihood be among those to conclude that the Antichrist would arise out of Islam if he were alive today.

… Of The Prince That Shall Come

With Daniel 9:26 we have a specific reference to the prince that shall come after Messiah is “cut off”, a prince whose people are not only associated with the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, but who are also associated with wars and desolations ‘unto the end’.  For the sake of argument let’s consider that Daniel is also referring here to an eschatonic leader and people that many consider to be the End-of-Days Antichrist and his kingdom (who would seek to destroy the foundations of the spiritual city and the spiritual temple in the Last Days) since the teachers I am arguing against use this very verse to support the idea of a European Antichrist.   With this in mind, let’s ask ourselves the following question:  If the Antichrist is European, why was Daniel not inspired by the Holy Spirit to say “the country/region (erets – H776) of the prince to come”, but was instead moved by the Spirit to use the word “am” (H5971) which means “people” or “nation“?   Does it not stand to reason that this is because the prince and the people who would destroy the city and the sanctuary — and therefore by extension the Last Days Antichrist and his people — are not necessarily identified geographically with Europe, but are instead identified primarily through ethnicity?  I say yes indeed, and it matters not if they were considered Roman soldiers (even the Apostle Paul called himself Roman, yet he was ethnically a Jew) because there is nothing in the verse to identify the prince to come with Europe geographically.

In closing, the overwhelming evidence that we are now beginning to watch unfold before our very eyes in these Last Days, underscored by authors and teachers such as Joel Richardson, Walid Shoebat and now other like-minded thinkers who have begun to re-examine this question such as Chuck MisslerDr. John MacArthurRay Gano and others, is that the Antichrist of these Last Days will not be coming out of Rome or Europe.  For many, the blinders of tradition and pop-theology has locked them into a state of eschatological tunnel-vision while a prowling Beast creeps beside them, rising out of the Middle East and ready to devour.  But a close examination of Daniel 9:26 along with a brief lesson in history and an even cursory look at current events leaves little doubt about it — Antichrist and the spirit of Antichrist is rising out of the Middle East, and from within radical Islam. Christian author Joseph Chambers concurs, and sums it up nicely by saying:

“There is no other geographical area on planet Earth where the Antichrist could appear but the Middle East. Those who continue to look only toward the European Common Market as the primary movement toward the Antichrist will soon be disappointed… To look for Satan’s final activities in any other area than the Middle East is to look in vain and in error…. The Islam or Moslem religion provides an excellent covering for the rise of the Antichrist.” (A Palace for the Antichrist, News Leaf Press, 1996, pages 136-142).

Credit:  For more information please be sure to read Joel Richardson’s excellent article titled “Daniel 9:26: Who Are The People of the Prince To Come?” here.

  1. Willard
    07/30/2011 at 9:05 PM

    William L. Irwin – if you are still around you may find this interesting info

    http://www.666mark.blog.com/

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  2. Anonymous
    08/18/2011 at 9:42 PM

    Willard :
    The RCC . . . is a prophecy by an Irish priest Malachy that the last pope will be an anti-pope Peter the Roman – but is this factual or not we will have to wait and see

    Peter the Roman is the resurrected Prophet of the Most High, St. John the Baptist, whom Jesus Christ calls “the Elias who was to come”, enjoying the rapture of Christ’s love, your ultimate, penultimate authority.

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  3. Willard
    08/18/2011 at 11:25 PM

    I know and I also agree with you it is a wait and see – certainly not biblical – a curiosity

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    • Anonymous
      08/19/2011 at 7:58 AM

      Willard :I know and I also agree with you it is a wait and see – certainly not biblical – a curiosity

      I can understand you writing that way about “Peter the Roman” only so far. I find your overall presentation calumnious, however, due to your omission of including in such a discourse some explanation that could truly account for a papal voting disaster.

      Originally, as in the case of Matthias being elected to replace Judas, the selection was turned over to God, even in the drawing of lots. This, to some, might seem a dubious method of settling a score. But then, I ask, when Christ multiplied the fishes and loaves, did He not do that in the physical and miraculous way? Scripture records He did, so turning the fall of die over to God in prayer can prove just as accurate and wholesome, without being anything less than what one would expect of the only Almighty God.

      How can a study of prophecy produce the current anomaly of a German Cardinal fulfilling the prophecy of a “Roman of good age”? I could blame myself for this or on another, or on poor reporting in general. But, perhaps the most difficult to see and accept is the departure from the original ‘casting of lots’ as one finds in Acts : 1.

      It is for the prevention of men being severed from God that Christ came into the world. So what then, right? What’s a few popes, or maybe just one to throw out, who’ll notice? I did. But I do searches for the name of my vicarage, “Peter the Roman”. And yours is not the first which treats the St. Malachy prophecy as frivolous.

      Even all the other editors at Wikipedia have not been able to treat the matter with the care it deserves. So someone else makes the adjustment, but on the surface there is still something that doesn’t look quite right – even Christ bore His wounds in public after His resurrection. Even not knowing of these details, when someone looks at Cardinal Joe, things appear just fine. Such is the power of illusion.

      Studied as I have, Williard, I just can’t bring myself to agree with you that I am an anti-pope, nor that I should sit around to wait and see.

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  4. 08/19/2011 at 4:32 PM

    penultimate authority – no idea what this means ?? calumnious – nor this

    Also I am not sure if I have this correct but I did not call you an anti-pope ??

    Studied as I have, Williard, I just can’t bring myself to agree with you that I am an anti-pope, nor that I should sit around to wait and see

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    • 05/04/2012 at 8:24 PM

      Peter the Roman is the 112th name in the St. Malachy prophecy. Christ as Judge is 113, the last name in the list.

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  5. 08/19/2011 at 8:50 PM

    OK, OK, I admit, I am ANTI Pope. There, its out in the open.

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    • 05/03/2012 at 12:52 PM

      hey KJ, it’s JJJHS. I’ve seen you and ICA cover this subject in detail so….. In this forum and a few others, there is mention of ‘Peter the Roman’ which is to be a pope and his number is supposedly an exact number in the successional order, as in the 127th pope will be…. etc. ICA had a great link to the popes in history and it showed that there were in fact dueling popes, more than one at the same time and so on. The number of total popes up until now on that site is different compared to Ratzinger’s # in the succession. So my question is, well I guess I don’t have one anymore. BUT!

      In an above comment anony says that Peter the Roman would be the spirit of Elijah, John the Baptist and so on. In other sites I have heard that Peter the Roman pope would be an evil character. Do you know anything about this or do you guys know of a solid source that I can look a little mnore into it. I ask because I don’t want a biased source. God bless you in the name above all names, the Word, Jesus our Messiah.

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      • 05/03/2012 at 5:46 PM

        If you can’t trust it from the horses mouth, you’ll never trust it from any one.

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        • 05/04/2012 at 4:44 AM

          I should prolly define the biased source. The biased source was the RCC site. Is this the horse’s mouth you mentioned? Anyway, KJ I just wanted another site to cross compare so if you have one let me know. JJJHS

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    • 05/04/2012 at 4:48 AM

      I should prolly define the biased source. The biased source was not ICA’s link but the RCC site with wonderful biographies, gummy bears and unicorns. KJ I would like to see another site that had some sort of diagram to cross compare with the other diagrams; if you have one let me know. I think the one to ask is ICA though. ICA if you read this comment send me an email or comment, thanks man. GBU, JJJHS

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  6. 08/20/2011 at 9:56 AM

    William L. Irwin :Islam is antichrist

    No one has ever taken the entire descendency of Ishmael and put the question as to whether each and every one of them severs Jesus from the Christ, so such a statement is presumptuous. And it wouldn’t be fair to even ask the question to those before Christ’s coming. Do they not understand their past and their book of faith, yes, many, probably all, do not. When you bring the elect into the equation, remember Christ’s elect is the name He gives to everyone after He has completed His work at Calvary.

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  7. 08/20/2011 at 10:12 AM

    Willard :
    The RCC certainly has been a False Prophet through out its history – Jerimiah below seems to connect with the Beast out of the sea and the Beast out of the earth and it may well be the RCC appearing as the False Prophet – Modern day Popes have tried to make arrangments with Islam and we are hearing more and more about CHRISLAM and there is a prophecy by an Irish priest Malachy that the last pope will be an anti-pope Peter the Roman – but is this factual or not we will have to wait and see

    You’re not alone in your penchant for Roman demonization, especially on the level of it being, at least, a sin against the Church as you have written. But it might serve well to remind you that St. Peter the Apostle organized the other apostles to write their accounts of the events they experienced so that we would have a Holy Bible. The early apostles never thought it trite to make sure that every office was not left vacant. There is no prophecy here that states I, Peter the Roman, is an anti-pope. But your presenting your lie here, whether of your own manufacture or in collusion with another (others), about me is calumnious.

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  8. Anonymous
    08/20/2011 at 4:46 PM

    Which pope kissed the Koran – JPII – How many popes have worshiped Mary – Peter is claimed as the first pope and the bible tells us that he had a motherinlaw – yet todays priest are not allowed to marry ??? which is the direct cause of many sexual abuse problems in the RCC – this is not what Christ taught us

    http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEsQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mostholyfamilymonastery.com%2F4_Antipopes.pdf&rct=j&q=anti%20popes&ei=vBtQTrWdO-fy0gGMmdj-Bg&usg=AFQjCNERxny8ofEevDjkbZct-t0UnCKsCQ

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  9. 08/20/2011 at 8:21 PM

    I read in the Bible about apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, pastors, deacons and elders, but not “popes”. I must be reading the wrong version. I am “against popes”–anti-pope.

    Kurt “anti-pope” J.

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    • 05/05/2012 at 5:07 AM

      simple and great point *period*

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    • 05/05/2012 at 10:31 AM

      As regards its use in English, and in its simplest and humblest of meanings, the word “pope” is an abridgement of various titles which equate to the “Bishop of Rome”. In 1 Timothy 3 of the Holy Bible, St. Paul writes concerning the office of bishop.

      The lasting use of “Pope”, as a form of “Father”, can also be seen in the 113th name, “Judge”, of the St. Malachy prophecy – the “Judge” being Jesus Christ, Who is one with our Father.

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      • 05/05/2012 at 12:34 PM

        Interesting info on the meaning of “Pope”. The problem is the evolution that occurred in both meaning and title from Bishop to Cardinal to Pope – now he is the representative of God on earth, his pronouncements infallible, has had the power to determine life or death (up to just under 200 years ago) – he is a type of Antichrist, and certainly for the reformers, was the Antichrist.

        I changed my position last Fall from:

        –> Traditional ‘Historicism’, which views the book of Revelation as spanning the church age culminating in the return of Christ with the distinctive that the Roman Catholic Church and the Papal system are seen as the Harlot and the Beast, but also including an end-time M.E. war against Islam, and a Millennial reign of Christ

        To:

        –> A modified Historicism/Pre-Millennialism, still viewing Revelation as spanning the church age, with somewhat concentric and overlapping seals, trumpets and bowls, and the Beast and Harlot being Islam and Saudi Arabia (Moab/Edom/etc); the final war bringing Christ’s return against the Beast prior to the Millennial reign,

        The only real change, albeit major, being the identification of the Harlot and Beast.

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        • 05/05/2012 at 8:36 PM

          +1 = KJ. I never understood this Kurt. I come from a background not in Christianity. God called me, I began to read with my heart, mind and soul and asked God to give me understanding. He did. I did not have any pre-biases to read into the word so I learned alot and seached it deep and wide. I never, ever, understood the RC positions and apologetics for anything; as well as pre-trib camp as well.

          The undistributed middle from deacon/bishop or overseer to infallible most holy father is a connotative leap at best.
          How does one get around Jesus telling anyon who believes in him, not to call anyone on earth father , let alone most holy father? I get attacked when I ask and once I was told I would get leprosy for not kissing the ring. No kidding man.

          God bless you guys, JJJHS

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  10. 08/20/2011 at 10:13 PM

    Anonymous :How many popes have worshiped Mary

    Even the “anti-popes” didn’t worship Mary.

    Like

  11. William L. Irwin
    12/08/2011 at 11:47 AM

    Check out ROME the city of seven hills,that great city and there is a GREAT WHORE siiting there. MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT MOTHER OF WHORES AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Also in ROME is the BEAST with two horns, the POPE. The horns are 1. The HOLY SEE and 2.the STATE OF VATICAN CITY. Each of those two entities is completely separate and sovereign and each of those separate and sovereign entities has a HEAD OF STATE which just so happens to be the same MAN, the POPE. The EUROPEAN UNION was BORN in ROME on MARCH 25,1957 on the ANNUNCIATION OF THE BIRTH OF THE LORD (ROMAN CATHOLIC HOLIDAY)! The E.U. has a WHORE MOTHER and a PIMP FATHER the POPE, the so called HOLY FATHER. ISLAM is ANTICHRIST and WHORE CHRISTANITY is ANTICHRIST. CHRIST MASS on the ROMAN CATHOLIC GREGORIAN CALENDAR is a ROMAN CATHOLIC HOLIDAY. Put the two words together CHRISTMASS drop the last s which leaves you with CHRISTMAS and now the PROTESTANTS have joined. No TRUE SCHOLAR believes the LORD was born on DEC.25th. WHORE CHRISTANITY and ISLAM want ISRAEL to give up the LAND OF ISRAEL that the LORD is restoring to ISRAEL. A QUEEN I SIT AND NONE SEETH ME. That’s her story but she’s a DUMMY The Lord has his story and I have mine. What’s your story? Go tell it on the mountain. Believe whatever you want. Think whatever you want. You have been endowed by your creator with certain rights. The BLIND LEAD THE BLIND and let THE DEAD BURY THEIR OWN DEAD and then the LORD said what? FOLLOW ME!!! Go ahead and do that or not.

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  12. William L. Irwin
    12/08/2011 at 12:27 PM

    Oh, by the way this is the ANNIVERSARY of the adoption date by the COUNCIL OF EUROPE of the current EUROPEAN UNION QUEEN OF HEAVEN FLAG, DEC.8,1955. It was taken from Rev.12:1, the woman with the crown of 12 stars. Believed by ROMAN CATHOLICS to be MARY. DEC.8th is the ANNIVERSARY of the ROMAN CATHOLIC HOLY DAY, the “IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF MARY” the “QUEEN OF HEAVEN “according to the CATHOLICS. and their leader the BEAST with TWO HORNS the POPE! They call her a redemptrix also.They also speak to her so they believe. They say the same thing over and over while clutching beads in their hands. This can last for hours repeating the same thing over and over. Certain of the followers use old bath tubs standing on end with statues of who they say is Mary the QUEEN OF HEAVEN inserted inside the bath tub creating some kind of do it yourself shrine for their QUEEN OF HEAVEN! A GIGANTIC statue of their QUEEN OF HEAVEN with a crown of twelve stars exists in ROME ! This is weird ,really weird, especially since the SEAT OF THE EUROPEAN UNION PARLIAMENT is the TOWER OF BABEL ! It is very scary what DELUDED PEOPLE do without even realizing it.

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  13. ICA
    12/08/2011 at 1:20 PM

    It all sounds fine and dandy William, until you really get into the Word of God and dig a little deeper:

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  14. William L. Irwin
    12/09/2011 at 12:38 PM

    We are all free to believe whatever we want. A one liner and a media player clip isn’t enough to overturn all the evidence against WHORE CHRISTIANITY. ISLAM is ANTICHRIST and I have no doubts about that at all. WHORE CHRISTIANITY is ANTICHRIST and I have no doubts about that at all. Satan is and has been using both of these SYSTEMS for centuries. They are part of a device forecast by SATAN to gather the nations into an END TIME BATTLE. This BATTLE will take place in the LAND OF ISRAEL and it will involve both WHORE CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM. As usual Israel and the Jews will be the target of Satan.He will be using his crash dummy, patsies as usual and as usual they will die. Just for the record SATAN is using his two pronged weapon against AMERICA too! WHORE CHRISTIANITY and ISLAM are the two prongs. In the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WHORE CHRISTIANITY continues with her doctrines of DEMONS and the RAPE AND MOLESTATION OF AMERICAN CHILDREN. The number of ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS involved in the RAPE and MOLESTATION of AMERICAN CHILDREN is ABSOLUTELY STAGGERING. It is estimated that as many as 6,000 ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS have RAPED and MOLESTED 250,000 AMERICAN CHILDREN since 1950. That is just the U.S.A. since 1950. What about the rest of the WORLD and the U.S.A. before and after 1950 (ROMAN GREGORIAN CALENDAR). Those BASTARDS are COVERING IT UP as best as they can. With the help of their DELUDED HORDE well entrenched in the GOVERNMENT, LAW ENFORCEMENT and the MEDIA they have kept as low a profile on the SCANDAL as possible. Known CHILD RAPIST PRIESTS have been transferred from one city to another. That is what happens when SATAN has the people DUPED. That SCANDAL goes right to the POPE! JOSEF RATZINGER actually avoided testimony in a sex scandal case by way of DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY because he was made POPE and as the HEAD of TWO SEPARATE and SOVEREIGN enties, 1.The HOLY SEE and 2. The STATE OF VATICAN CITY ( The BEAST WITH TWO HORNS of REV.13) the matter went no further. The other BASTARD DIED and the PANZER POPE the former HITLER YOUTH the NEW BASTARD is there now. ISLAM cries DEATH TO AMERICA ! REMEMBER 911 ! I will NEVER FORGET! Also an IRAQI I know from what was known as the GREEN ZONE in BAGHDAD now residing in AMERICA told me the MUSLIMS are TRAFFICKING in HEROIN in MICHIGAN,U.S.A.. The ISLAMIC MURDERERS are in the U.S.A. NOW. SATAN and his two pronged DEVICE are in use against the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA right NOW!!! Dig a litlle deeper yourself and your grave will be finished and then you jump right in it BOZO!

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  15. Anonymous
    12/09/2011 at 4:39 PM

    William L. Irwin – Maybe you should study the Book of Daniel a bit deeper – Rome is not mentioned in it other than maybe Titus – In Dan 2 we go from kingdom three the bronze belly and thighs to kingdom four which is found in the mixture of iron clay and toes – the word mixed is connected to the word ARAB according to Strong’s. Being dogmatic just for the sake of being dogmatic or stubborn just for the sake of stubbornness tells us that you are not open to either learning or understanding anything. Open your eyes and your mind there is a lot happening around you and prophecy is being fulfilled everyday. I just posted the below at another site.

    I may not be correct 100% but the below makes more biblical sense than looking at Rome these days. Who is causing the Christian in the ME at the moment not being able to sell or buy Rome or Islam. Who is beheading people today Rome or Islam, I agree that the RC priests have their problems with children and totally condemn that but the Arabs promote child sex with young boys as something normal, many prefer boys over their I lived in the ME many, many years and seen it all the time.

    Da 7:2 Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea.
    Da 7:3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

    Babylon, Persia Greece and Islam (Mahdi A/C) uniting all of the same or identical Islamic lands once ruled by Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece.

    Da 7:4 “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle.

    http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/32.143.2

    I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.
    Da 7:5 “And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear.

    (Persia today’s Iran whose lands may produce the A/C)

    It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’
    Da 7:6 “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard………..

    (Greece and Alexander’s four generals – Ancient historians tell us that Alexander the Great’s four generals divided his empire and assumed control of different parts. His four generals were Lysimachus, Cassander, Seleucus, and Ptolemy. Lysimachus received Thrace and most of Asia Minor. Cassander obtained Macedonia and Greece. Ptolemy was given Egypt, Palestine, Cilicia, Petra, and Cyprus while Seleucus controlled the rest of Asia: Syria, Babylon, Persia, and India. A note of interest much of the lands once under the control of Cassander Albania, Bosnia and the Balkans are also today largely Islamic and the only Legion V from Eastern Europe or what is know as the Balkans that were present in the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem came from these lands – every other Legion came out of the ME the lands of Seleucus, Ptolemy and Lysimachus. Even though Titus got all of the credit for destroying Jerusalem there were no Legions from Rome or Europe there. This alone should tell us something about end day aligments!!

    And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
    Da 7:7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast

    (The 4th Beast is the Madai the coming ruler of Islam who is the – Little Horn – which came up AMONGST THEM)

    …terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns. Da 7:8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully

    Chapter 8

    Da 8:15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man.
    Da 8:16 And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”
    Da 8:17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.” END DAYS
    Da 8:18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.
    Da 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. TIME OF WRATH AGAIN END DAYS
    Da 8:20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia.
    Da 8:21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king.
    Da 8:22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.
    Da 8:23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. LATTER PART OF THEIR REIGN TODAYS ME ISLAMIC NATIONS which were once controlled by rulers who had Greek DNA and still are

    Da 8:24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation (IRAN IS ON THE VERGE OF BEING A NUCLEAR POWER) and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people.
    Da 8:25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
    Da 8:26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

    THIS WAS 2300 EVENING AND MORNINGS – Alexander who still to this day represents prophetically the people through his general Seleucus represents the NORTH, and Ptolemy who represents the SOUTH and all the ME nations surrounding Israel and Jerusalem. Alexander took Judah and Jerusalem under his control in 332 BC 2300 – 332= 1967 with zero year removed. Up until 1967 Jerusalem was under the control of the ME nations (Greek DNA) which once were in Alexander’s hands and prophetically speaking up until June the 6th 1967 when it was taken away from Jordan whose king claims to be a direct descendent of MOHAMEAD’S the prophet of ALLAH. These two general are the lands of the North and South that Daniel speaks about in Chapter 11

    Da 8:27 I, Daniel, was exhausted and lay ill for several days. Then I got up and went about the king’s business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding

    Current Coat of Arms for Iraq which was and is ancient Assyria, and Babylon. Notice the ten feathers in its wings 5 on each wing and than think the ten horns of Daniel, the heart Dan 7:4 above is in the middle of the man and the eagle does look much like a standing man, also Nebuchadnezzar was the only king ever in the bible that became a BEAST – Read 4:33 below and than look at the link below and tell me that there is not the same message here??

    Da 4:33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like cattle. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Iraq

    Willard

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  16. William L. Irwin
    12/11/2011 at 9:00 PM

    The Persians certainly are threatening DEATH TO ISRAEL AND DEATH TO AMERICA! I am well aware of the NUCLEAR DANGER IRAN poses. I’m very much aware of the M.A.D. nullifying ISLAMIC THEOLOGY of PERSIA. ISLAM is certainly ANTICHRIST and you will get no arguement from me about it. WHORE CHRISTIANITY is ANTICHRIST and I do have my detractors because of that belief to say the least. It is really EASY to see that ISLAM denies the LORD and ISLAM is right up front about it. Is JESUS GOD? ISLAM says NO, JESUS CHRIST IS NOT GOD, straight out! A NOVICE with minimal scriptural understanding can spot that, EASILY! So there goes ISLAM with virtually no effort at all into the antichrist category. I believe we are warned in the HOLY BIBLE of a deception so cunning that if it were possible EVEN THE VERY ELECT OF GOD COULD BE DECEIVED! I believe that this deception is being COMMITED by WHORE CHRISTIANITY. The BIBLE warns of the preaching of a DIFFERENT JESUS and a FALSE GOSPEL. That is the CUNNING DECEPTION that if it were possible even the VERY ELECT COULD BE DECEIVED. That danger in my opinion and personal belief, is based out of ROME. Many of the beliefs of the ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIGION have also been adopted by the so called PROTESTANTS, EVANGELICALS, NON-DENOMINATIONAL SECTS and others to numerous to mention here. We can all believe whatever we want. I am not stopping anyone from believing whatever they choose to believe. If you want to be a ROMAN CATHOLIC or a PROTESTANT go right ahead. If you want to be a member of some MOSQUE, go right ahead. If you want to go to SYNAGOGUE feel free. I’m not stopping or hindering anyone in any way. No one will be answering to me for anything. I’m not GOD. I let the dead bury their own dead and the blind lead the blind. I believe what I choose also! ISLAM is antichrist someone says. To that I say well done, that is a fine observation. O.K., ISLAM is ANTICHRIST! So, can we all take a deep breath and say it is over???? I can tell you this, that is just what SATAN would like you to do! You’re getting the DECEPTION IN THE LORDS NAME and it is not from ISLAM as antichrist as it is. The DECEPTION we are warned of is coming from somewhere else. I told you where, ROME! THERE ARE MANY ANTICHRISTS! BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT, I DO. I’m not stopping anyone.

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  17. 12/11/2011 at 10:44 PM

    William L. Irwin – I agreed we are each entitled to believe what we want be it right or be it wrong – myself I am only trying to find the truth and that is what my search is about – In Dan 2 we are told about the image of metal – in this image there are four kingdoms – Babylon – Persia – Greece and the the fourth which is the A/C kingdom – Which one would you call Rome ?? it cannot be the iron legs as they do not have a number so it must be Greco-Rome as neither Greece nor Rome was ever defeated Greece morphed into Rome at the knees and run side by side (my thoughts) one for each leg and it may well be the Eastern and Western forms of Christianity but still prophectically Greece for many reasons to numerous to mention here – democracy a Greek invention just one of them, language, Zec 9:13 referres to Zion against the sons of Greece at the coming of Zions king, it also was the lamguage of the biblical ME – the early bible and the Greek Septeugint etc etc???

    http://gaialab.asu.edu/DAAHL/GML.php

    Da 2:39 “After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. (Persia) Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. (Greece which still is ruling under the banner of Democracy which the Arab Spring nations are screaming for but will be fooled by the Clerics and the Muslim Brothhood.

    Da 2:40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others

    NOTE THIS AS IT EXPLAINS MUCH – We are told in verse 2:40 that the fourth kingdom will crush and break to pieces all of the other kingdoms – SO if Rome is to be found in the clay and iron feet we should see this historically where it crushed Babylon. Persia and Greece – The question therefore is DID ROME do that destroy all of the kingdoms in this image of metal – If you look on the link above and choose the Roman Empire you will see that its furthest borders did not cover Persia one of the empire in this image – the silver one and it only indirectly ruled over the lands of Babylon – so Rome cannot be in the clay feet and toes

    This is what we are being told and pointed too but I am only suggesting this as I am still waiting for further confirmation which will be the one that will unite these ten nations that the ten toes may be the following ten nations some of them Arab Spring nations some of them involved in the war against Islamic terroism – I am watching for Passover 2012 to see if he may possibly appear and show himself than – again a wait and see and as Jesus said in Matt 24 we are to WATCH for his return and WE MUST BE READY because he will arrive unexpectidly – I am not predicting but I am watching and there are many signs that he is right at the door

    Mt 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
    Mt 24:43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
    Mt 24:44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him

    1) Libya, 2) Egypt, 3) Jordan 4) Lebanon 5) Syria, 6) Turkey, 7) Iraq 8) Iran 9) Afghanistan and 10) Pakistan Every one of these nations is against Israel, is in the news everyday and they are trying to unite under a common banner an Islamic Calphite

    If you select both the Persian Empire and the Hellinstic empire at the above link you will see that the borders of theses empires basicaly cover the ten above mentioned nations. They will not sick together as clay and iron do not mix (mixed means ARAB according to Strongs) Why will they not stick together – because we have Turks, Syrians, Arabs, Iranians, Ishmaelies, Edomites the PA, we also have Kurds, Talibans, Pakistani’s etc. Then we have the Shiites, Sunnis, and numerous oth Ilamic sects plus the Christians and several other religeons in Northen Iran

    Will Rome play a part ?? I do not believe that it will play a part as the A/C for many reasons
    one of many though is because Micah calls him The Assyrian and Rome is no where near Assyria.

    BUT I have had some thoughts that it may play the part of the False Prophet – the bible is silent on where he comes from ?? And we do have a branch of the church CHRISLAM that is wide open to joing and worshiping along side of Muslims and the pope John Paul II did kiss the Koran as well so there do some signs pointing to this as a possibility – we will need to watch this

    You referre to RCC church as a religion of deceit which I agree with to a point as well – But look at Islam how it has entrenched itself through Europe, the USA, and the rest of the world under the banner of the religion of PEACE – if that is not deceit than I do not know what is deceit. It has beheaded tens of thousands, is stopping Christians from buying and selling in the ME as we speak, raping the women in Europe at will almost, in Fort Hood where 13 were killed it is referred to as work place violence because all are afraid to stand up against Islam – it is a religion of deceit – even into The Dome of The Rock it is written GOD HAS NO SON how much clearer is that as an A/C blasphemy

    Willard

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  18. 05/02/2012 at 10:54 PM

    Hapless murdering was not the goal of the Crusades. Historically, the bulk of the warring centers upon a simple misquote of the words spoken by Jesus Christ. The misquote centers upon the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father. The misquote is in the form of an addenda, the addition of the words “and the Son”. Christ specifically taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Though the Father and Christ be One, and the Father has handed everything over to Christ, this mechanism of procession remains unchanged, for He Who glorifies the Son is the Father : in the words of Christ : “I am the Vine, My Father is the Vinedresser.”

    The custom of adding the words “and the Son” in Ritual Worship began as early as the end of the 4th century. The logistics of Heaven’s response to this was to send an angel to a descendent of Ishmael to correct an error begun through the descendents of Isaac, Ishmael and Isaac being brothers via Abraham. The correction was given in a simple command “Recite”, for if those adding “and the Son” to the Creed in worship were to check Scripture, they would see their error.

    It wasn’t until the Pontificate of Leo III (795-816) that the matter came to be seen as a definite error. Eric John, the editor of “The Popes”, sums it up this way on p. 132 :

    “It is difficult not to see that the addition to the Creed is both in accord with Scripture and reason, and the pope could do nothing but support it.”

    By this time, Islam was already on the rise in response to the angelic apparition, burgeoning with similar error. Even today in Jerusalem, there is the muslim quarter, the Christian quarter, and the like, remnants of error and correction from centuries past. Yet, through humanity’s struggle in that city, the Cathedral of St. Anne, the mother of Our Spotless Virgin, has remained intact, a sign of Christ’s legacy and leadership.

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  19. 05/07/2012 at 1:11 AM

    I’m about 120 pages into Joel Richardson’s “Mideast Beast” – he’s done an amazing job. Very good so far. About this verse, Joel say’s the Hebrew/Aramaic word is “am”, which doesn’t mean only mean nation or political entity, but people, ethnicity… H5971 is defined as:

    1) nation, people

    a) people, nation

    b) persons, members of one’s people, compatriots, country-men

    2) kinsman, kindred

    He goes into a lot of historic detail about the events of 70 AD and crunches numbers from sources from those days (Tacitus, Josephus, a Syrian source) that shows that at least 55,000 out of the 60,000-strong force that besieged Jerusalem were Arabs, Syrians and others from the surrounding peoples – and was likely even a higher percentage.

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  20. ICA
    05/07/2012 at 5:19 PM

    Thanks for the update Kurt. Which verse specifically?

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  21. 05/07/2012 at 8:11 PM

    The word “people” in Dan 9:26.

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  22. Anonymous
    05/08/2012 at 3:44 PM

    I seem to recall that both Joel and Walid have made this point in the past to show that the “people of the prince to come” will not be Roman, but rather Arab. I’ll have to get my hands on that book soon.

    AHF

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  23. 05/08/2012 at 9:35 PM

    Kurt J – Although I certainly respect Joel R and Walid S very much, however, why would God describe the “people of the prince who is to come” by requiring readers of the prophecy to know the ethnicity of the Roman legion that was attacking Jerusalem? It seems to me that this view is forcing what we believe the answer to be — we know that the prince who is to come is Muhammad; but we also know that the Romans defeated Jerusalem in 70AD. So we have to find a way to make the passage work, and I think this is what this view does. Daniel 9:26 is a key to the Revived Roman Empire view, and if those in the Islamic Paradigm cant come up with a credible answer, then the Paradigm fails.

    I suggest we start over. Is the text really talking about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD? Is the text talking about the crucifixion of Jesus in 30 AD? Is this when the Messiah was “cut off and had nothing” or is the text talking about another “cutting off” of Messiah, and another “destruction of the city and the sanctuary”? How can we conclude that Messiah was “cut off” when he died on the cross? Seems to me that the cross is where Christianity had everything, not “had nothing.” Doesn’t John 12:24 state, “Unless the grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies it has nothing, but if it dies, it bears much fruit.” Christ died, and in his death, he bore fruit; not he had nothing.

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  24. 05/09/2012 at 2:07 AM

    Jack Smith :
    why would God describe the “people of the prince who is to come” by requiring readers of the prophecy to know the ethnicity of the Roman legion that was attacking Jerusalem?

    Doesn’t seem like that hard of a thing to know – certainly the Jews who were prophesied to and attacked knew who they were, and several histories of the events have survived until today. Wikipedia can tell us exactly who the belligerents were, with links to info on the actual legions involved…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%2870%29 Of course it is easy to get much more in depth than Wikipedia.

    Joel wrote over 250 pages to support his “Mideast Beast” theory and dedicates an entire chapter (Ch. 7) to this issue; I think he’s right on (at least on this issue!!)

    I suggest we start over. Is the text really talking about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD? Is the text talking about the crucifixion of Jesus in 30 AD?

    Yes it is.

    Is this when the Messiah was “cut off and had nothing” or is the text talking about another “cutting off” of Messiah, and another “destruction of the city and the sanctuary”?

    Yes, no and no, in order of your questions.

    How can we conclude that Messiah was “cut off” when he died on the cross?

    From other scriptures:

    Isaiah 53:8, By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
    And as for His generation, who considered
    That He was cut off out of the land of the living
    For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

    Mark 9:12, And He said to them, “Elijah does first come and restore all things. And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that He will suffer many things and be treated with contempt?

    Luke 24:26, Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?”

    Seems to me that the cross is where Christianity had everything, not “had nothing.” Doesn’t John 12:24 state, “Unless the grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies it has nothing, but if it dies, it bears much fruit.” Christ died, and in his death, he bore fruit; not he had nothing.

    Jack, I’m not following you. Just come right out and say what you mean.

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  25. 05/09/2012 at 12:07 PM

    Kurt J – I think the interpretation of Daniel 9:26 is to the Islamic Paradigm what Jesus is to salvation — without the correct view here, the Paradigm is lost. Also, I know my interpretation is vastly different from the traditional interpetation, and it has its weaknesses, but I think they are not as great. For the interpreter to be required to know the ethnicity of the Roman soldiers who attacked Jerusalem in order to accurately interpret the passage just doesn’t work for me. What difference would ethnicity make in who the declared victor was? All soldiers were under the authority of Rome no matter where they were from. Also, when has ethnicity of a solider ever mattered in war? Paid mercenaries have been a part of many battles, for all of human history, but we don’t look to their ethnicity to define who the victor was nor to evaluate the success of the commander. If ethnicity matters then why doesn’t ethnicity fit into other passages where Rome is interpreted to be present?

    You quoted Joel who stated that “am” could be translated in these ways:

    “a) nation, people

    a) people, nation

    b) persons, members of one’s people, compatriots, country-men

    2) kinsman, kindred”.

    Here is Strong’s actual definition of the word (from where I understand Joel got his information): “from (`amam); a people (as a congregated unit); specifically a tribe (as those of Israel); hence (collective) troops or attendants; figurative a flock :- folk, men, nation, people.” Strong’s Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary, Electronic Edition.

    Strongs states that of the 1,862 uses of the Hebrew word, “am,” 1836 are translated “people,” 17 are translated “nation,” and 4 are translated as “people” in relation to kindred. Therefore, 4x out of 1,862 uses, the word means “ethnicity” or “kindred.” Hence, the specific definition, according to Strong’s, is “a congregated unit, specifically a tribe (as those of Israel)…”

    For example, Israel is one “people,” (“am”) but made up of 12 tribes. Tribal identity is lost in the definition because the tribes take on the meaning of the combined group, i.e., Israel! Applying this interpretation to the Roman view of Daniel 9:26 results in: there were many “tribes,” i.e., Pesians, Arabs, etc., that were a part of Titus’ Roman Legion; but only one “people” — the Romans. Their “tribal” identity was lost when they joined under the banner of Rome.

    I will share my “radical” view in parts. To sum it up, the “prince who is to come” is Muhammad. The “people” are the Muslims. The city is Constantinople, 1453AD, not Jerusalem, 70AD. The sanctuary that is destroyed is the Hagia Sophia, not the Temple. The Messiah is “cutt-off” not on the cross but when Constantinople fell to Sultan Mehmad II in 1453AD. This defeat “cuttoff” the Middle East from Christianity of the East and the West, forever rendering the lands that Christ once had once walked, all but bereft of a Savior. The proof — they are predominantly Muslim now.

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    • 05/09/2012 at 3:37 PM

      Jack,

      Thanks for being clear. Now we can talk. Here’s my responses to your statements:

      Jack: “What difference would ethnicity make in who the declared victor was? All soldiers were under the authority of Rome no matter where they were from. Also, when has ethnicity of a solider ever mattered in war? Paid mercenaries have been a part of many battles, for all of human history, but we don’t look to their ethnicity to define who the victor was nor to evaluate the success of the commander. If ethnicity matters then why doesn’t ethnicity fit into other passages where Rome is interpreted to be present?”

      These are good points, but the verse is very specific: “the people of the prince who is to come”, not “the gov’t”, or “the ancestors” or “the soldiers” – the Angel specifically identifies “the people”. He is trying to call attention specifically to ethnicity of the destroyers of the temple and city, not the gov’t. So the people of Antichrist, i.e., the surrounding peoples, will be the ones who destroy the city and temple and kill the people. Titus, the Roman commander, when he heard the temple was burning actually tried to put out the fire. From the accounts its sounds like things quickly got out of hand and went far beyond what Rome intended.

      Jack: “You quoted Joel who stated that “am” could be translated in these ways:
      “a) nation, people
      a) people, nation
      b) persons, members of one’s people, compatriots, country-men
      2) kinsman, kindred”.

      Here is Strong’s actual definition of the word (from where I understand Joel got his information): “from (`amam); a people (as a congregated unit); specifically a tribe (as those of Israel); hence (collective) troops or attendants; figurative a flock :- folk, men, nation, people.” Strong’s Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary, Electronic Edition.”

      I wasn’t quoting Joel, I just pulled the definition from blueletterbible.com, which gets its info from either Strong’s or Gesenius’s. The first definition is (1) of singles races or tribes, e.g., often of the tribes of Israel. Joel’s definition was similar enough, however.

      Jack, “Strongs states that of the 1,862 uses of the Hebrew word, “am,” 1836 are translated “people,” 17 are translated “nation,” and 4 are translated as “people” in relation to kindred. Therefore, 4x out of 1,862 uses, the word means “ethnicity” or “kindred.” Hence, the specific definition, according to Strong’s, is “a congregated unit, specifically a tribe (as those of Israel)…””

      I would actually look at it exactly opposite: 1840 times the word is translated “people” as opposed to 17 times as “nation”.

      Jack: “For example, Israel is one “people,” (“am”) but made up of 12 tribes. Tribal identity is lost in the definition because the tribes take on the meaning of the combined group, i.e., Israel! Applying this interpretation to the Roman view of Daniel 9:26 results in: there were many “tribes,” i.e., Pesians, Arabs, etc., that were a part of Titus’ Roman Legion; but only one “people” — the Romans. Their “tribal” identity was lost when they joined under the banner of Rome.”

      No, Israel is an “am”, the Arabs are an “am”, the Syrians…, etc. Its not Arab clan ‘A’ is an “am”, Arab clan ‘B’, etc.

      Jack: “I will share my “radical” view in parts. To sum it up, the “prince who is to come” is Muhammad.”

      It is Antichrist.

      Jack: “The “people” are the Muslims.”

      Sort of, they are actually the offspring of Ishmael.

      Jack: “The city is Constantinople, 1453AD, not Jerusalem, 70AD.”

      The city is Jerusalem per Dan 9:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 24, 25, but in v. 26 you would have “the city”, “the holy place”, “the holy mtn”, “your city Jerusalem” suddenly jump to Constantinople?

      Jack: “The sanctuary that is destroyed is the Hagia Sophia, not the Temple.”

      Same as my previous comments – the context is clearly the Jerusalem temple.

      Jack: “The Messiah is “cutt-off” (sic) not on the cross but when Constantinople fell to Sultan Mehmad II in 1453AD.”

      Per the verses I quoted in my previous post, I disagree.

      I think you need to (humbly) deconstruct your paradigm, and draw your understanding from the immediate context and related passages, rather than taking one or a few verses that you think say one thing and then make all others conform to that understanding, book or no. We are all learning, changing. Some of my views are being changed, based on scripture compared with scripture, even now as I read JR’s book.

      Hold tightly the word of truth, but lightly your understanding of esoteric passages. The main and plain we should all agree on.

      Blessings,
      Kurt

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      • 05/09/2012 at 5:01 PM

        Kurt J –
        Kurt: “These are good points, but the verse is very specific: “the people of the prince who is to come”, not “the gov’t”, or “the ancestors” or “the soldiers” – the Angel specifically identifies “the people”. He is trying to call attention specifically to ethnicity of the destroyers of the temple and city, not the gov’t. So the people of Antichrist, i.e., the surrounding peoples, will be the ones who destroy the city and temple and kill the people. Titus, the Roman commander, when he heard the temple was burning actually tried to put out the fire. From the accounts its sounds like things quickly got out of hand and went far beyond what Rome intended.”

        Think about what you are saying using the Roman paradigm. The “prince who is to come” would be a future Roman leader who destroyes the city and the sanctuary.The “people of the prince to come” are identified not by ethnicity but by the prince who leads them. I concur that the angel is calling attention to the people — but he is doing it through the prince who has authority over them. Using the Roman paradigm, then the “people” have to be of Roman descent since the prince you are using to identify them is Roman. I am aware that Titus attempted to save the Temple; but it is not Titus as a person that is significant but the nation that he is identified with. .

        I hesitated in “summing up” my view, because it will not be given its due until: 1 – this view is looked at more thoroughly and its weaknesses considered. 2 – we have reviewed history on the fall of Constantinople and the Hagia Sophia and come to understand the full import of its fall to Christians living in the Middle East (and Jews/Muslims who might have know Christ otherwise). 3 – I am certainly aware that the passage in total appears to be addressed to the Jews and Jerusalem, specifically (9:24). Is it not possible that the Lord had a greater audience in mind than the Jews? When he states in Dan 9:24, “…to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy”, how can this be limited solely to the Jews when the Jews rejected the Messiah?

        Try to finish reply later. No more time, now.
        Blessings.

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  26. Willard
    05/09/2012 at 3:11 PM

    Jack Smith said – What difference would ethnicity make in who the declared victor was? All soldiers were under the authority of Rome no matter where they were from. Also, when has ethnicity of a solider ever mattered in war?

    I think you are missing the main or central message of Dan 9:26 as this verses is speaking of the end not 70 AD entirely except that it would be the people in 70 AD who destroyed Jerusalem who would produce the A/C.

    When it says that the end will come like a flood it is speaking of the end days, the days of wrath. The prince being spoken about here is not Rome or Titus or even 70 AD fully but rather it is looking at the PRINCE to come at the end of the long distant road the prince who we will call the A/C.

    That is why this verse is so critical when it tells us (THE PEOPLE OF THE RULER WHO WILL COME) The ruler the A/C who will come out of the DNA of the people who destroyed Jerusalem and Judea. These people were 95% Syrians, Turks, Babylonians, Egyptians, and one legion from the Balkans.

    Da 9:26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: l War will continue until the end, and desolations m have been decreed

    We are being told were we should be watching – where he will be coming from that he will be Middle Eastern, that he will be the Assyrian of Micha 5 – he will be from Islam, Ishmael, Esau, Nimrod DNA

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  27. Anonymous
    05/09/2012 at 5:00 PM

    What Kurt and Willard said.

    I would add regarding the point that the passage requires the bible student to understand the meaning of the “people of the prince to come” referring to the Arabs – one might apply the same logic to your thesis. How many folks out there know the history of Byzantium, and that Constantinople fell to Sultan Mehmad II in 1453AD?

    AHF

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    • 05/10/2012 at 9:01 AM

      AHF – I found your reply in my inbox but can’t find it in the comments. You said that the same logic could be applied to my use of Constantinople as I was doing for the “obscurity” of the ethnicity of the Roman army — that they were the same.

      Your words summarize the problem precisely — like hitting the nail on the head. You stated, “how many people know the history of the fall of Constantinople?” This is the problem. People dont know the history of Constantinople’s’ fall. This event is mammoth in the history of Christendom, in fact, no less so than the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans in 70 AD. Constantinople was considered the “Jerusalem” of Christianity not many years after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire (453AD). The Muslims tried for almost 600 years to take the city because of its importance to Christianity but they were never successful until 1453AD. The city’s unique geogrpahy and its massive walls encircling the city kept the Muslim invaders from taking the city. Muslims saw it as the “apple” of Christianity that they had to pluck because if they could take the city, they could cutoff western Christianity from eastern Christianity (look at a map and see where modern day Istanbul is and what would happen to the narrow land passage way if Constantinople fell). The Hagia Sophia Church was to Christianity as the Temple was to the Jews. It was the largest, most spectacular church in all of Christendom for almost 500 years! The first thing the Muslims did upon their successful siege of Constantinople was to make their way to the church and declare, “There is not god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.” This statement “baptized” the church immediately into Islam, forever to be a mosque (now a museum in Istanbul after Ataturk renounced the caliphate of Islam in 1924).

      If we knew the history of the fall of Constantinople, I think this view would have been considered long ago. When I first began looking at this text, i didnt even know where Constantinople was or its significance to the history of Christianity in the Middle East. It was only after reading multiple sources that gave me the history and significance of this city to Christendom in the 15th century and prior that i was able to see its fulfillment in Dan 9:26. Let me suggest that you just look at the history of this event and consider it as an option.

      Blessings and with respect my brother.

      PS – is there a spell checker in the site somewhere that I am missing?

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      • 05/10/2012 at 10:31 AM

        Jack,

        First off, I entirely agree with you about the importance of Constantinople and tragedy of its fall. It was a major event and in my view a much greater “war crime” than the Crusades, which were more or less part of the ongoing response to Islam’s advance – we don’t really hear about that though.

        Second, are you aware of the Historicist (I used to primarily be one) interpretation of Rev 9 of the 5th and 6th trumpets? The fifth being the advent of Islam and the 6th being its advance to the west? There is much to mine there, but specifically these verses could describe the siege of Constantinople and its fall:

        16 The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. [symbolic: 200 million = a lot, or including demons, or, over time]

        17 And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; [colors Islamic armies wore] and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone. [first use of cannon in war; cannons were forged to have heads of lions]

        18 A third of mankind [1/3 of the Roman Empire; the south was gone; the east is in view here, only the west remains] was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths. [cannon]

        19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths [where the shot comes out] and in their tails [where the fuse is lit]; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm.

        It could be that here Constantinople’s fall is pictured, but I hold to the “Mideast Beast” understanding of Dan 9:26. I will reply to your other post later.

        Blessings and fruitfulness to you.

        Like

  28. 05/09/2012 at 9:30 PM

    I have just realized that the post I first replied to from Kurt J goes all the way back to a post several months back from ICA, and then elaborated upon by several others over the months. What a surpise for me! Sort of like cutting the grass and all of a sudden realizing you have jst run over a wasps nest! Very good work in that initial post, ICA. I will certainly read more thoroughly before replying again, …

    This does seem to be a pretty well-researched issue among you, and one that you are all in agreement on. I am aware that I am the “new-guy” here. Because of that, the impetus is upon me to defend my views adequately and thorougly (how do we find the time?). I do thank you for your good spirit in these issues. I have been in a few prophecy blogs before (not as Jack Smith), and the spirit is anything but Godly. I so appreciate being able to disagree with you without being labeded as not “following the Bible” or similar nonsense. I think most students of prophecy follow the Bible– we just interpret it differently.

    Bless you and your scholarship. Talk again soon.

    Like

  29. Willard
    05/10/2012 at 12:12 AM

    That is what I like about ICAs blog Jack – it is the best one that I have come across – we are not here to condemn one another but to search and find the truth – and each of us do see things from various perspectives which is Gods way of digging out the truths I think

    Like

  30. 05/10/2012 at 12:38 AM

    Jack, thank you for being gracious about us (me?) having a “good spirit” – I sure would like to, but sometimes I’m a bit blunt; sorry for that. Thank you for being willing to continue the discussion, though it seems to you that we are all in agreement with an understanding contrary to yours. That we are in agreement is sometimes true, but you will find out that is certainly not always the case. I think we agree on the major points of the overall outline, however.

    Jack, I’m not sure you understand what Dan 9:26 is saying, and I base this concern on this statement of yours, “Think about what you are saying using the Roman paradigm. The “prince who is to come” would be a future Roman leader who destroyes (sic) the city and the sanctuary.”

    I’m not using the Roman paradigm, nor is ICA or Willard, nor do we think the “prince who is to come” is a Roman.

    The verse again: “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.”

    Broken down: “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing” – see also “He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people”, Isa. 53:8 – both of these are picturing the crucifixion.

    “and the people” – we’ve discussed this too – these are the people of “the prince who is to come” The prince who is to come is Antichrist, not the Romans. The Romans soldiers, made up of 95% local surrounding peoples, the peoples of the Antichrist, are the ones who destroyed the city and sanctuary in 70 AD. They are the destroying people, they are the ones whose descendant will be Antichrist. Perhaps you meant this, but that is not what you wrote.

    A couple of more points. Dan 9, besides consistently talking about Jerusalem and the Temple, with no hint of jumping to another city of another people of another time, is also discussing the countdown to Messiah – this is the main point of the chapter. The chapter ends with:

    – the crucifixion (Messiah will be cut off, Isa 53:8),
    – the city and sanctuary will be destroyed (they were after the desolation of the old covenant, sacrificial system and the expiration of the Jews’ seventy sevens),
    – the prediction of desolations and wars until the end (consult any history book),
    – the firm (new) covenant,
    – the end of sacrifice and grain offering, and desolations brought on by both the enemy and the Jews’ rejection of Messiah, until onto the surrounding peoples/the Beast/Antichrist a complete destruction is poured out.

    So to insert Constantinople into this context seems to come with no provocation nor support.

    Also, the Angel and Daniel are addressing the people of Israel – this is a prophecy of their coming Messiah. Although we have all benefited from his obedience and are grafted in to Israel by faith in Yeshua, again Christians one thousand miles away and 1300 years later are not in view. As a shepherd and watchman, I implore you to drop this notion; it has no scriptural support.

    There, did I do OK?? I didn’t say you were a heretic or barbarian!!

    Blessings.

    Like

    • 05/10/2012 at 8:24 AM

      Kurt – I know you are not Roman paradigm (nor am I). I am suggesting that you look at this view as if you were of the Roman paradigm, only to enable you to see the weakness of this interpretion of 9:26. In other words, a Roman view concludes:
      1. Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70AD so this has to be the “city and the sanctuary” described in 9:26
      2. The prince has to be “Roman” because, historically, there is no other option assuming we begin with point 1.
      3. The “people of the prince” have to be whomever is under the authority of the Romans, whether Arabs or Chinese, it doesn’t matter– because they began assuming point 1 must be Jerusalem and the Temple.
      4. Ethnicity then becomes a weak “stretch” to those of the Roman view. It will cause most to interpret the Islamic Paradigm as “heretical” because it uses the word “am” to enable them to disregard the logic of steps 1 – 3 above.
      5. Therefore, an European antichrist is the only option to interpret 9:27 (for those of the Roman view)!

      In other words, if you have to disregard a Hebrew word (“am”) that is used 1858 times to mean “people” as a “congregated unit,” i.e., the “congregated unit” of the Roman legion, and chose a different meaning based on only 4 uses of the same word to mean “kindred” or “ethnicity,” that is too big a stretch to make your case. (uses based on Strong’s table).

      Although I am not a Hebrew scholar what I know from my Seminary days is that in Hebrew the meaning of a word is determined based on its context. The same Hebrew word “am” can have many different meanings, but the interpretation chosen for the word is based on the context. If we base the meaning of “am” on the words around it, how do we get “ethnicity” instead of “corporate body” or “congregated unit”? The congregated unit is the Roman Legion, not the Arab Legion. Again, remember that in the Roman Paradigm, they will begin with the historical fact of Jerusalem being destroyed by the Romans which means the prince has to be Roman which means the army, the congregated unit, has to be Roman– which leads to the logical conclusion, for them, that the Islamic paradigm is a stretch, at best, and heretical at worst.

      Think about it from the perspective of the Roman solider who was a paid mercenary, perhaps born in Arabia. How did he view himself serving in Titus’s Legion? Was he doing so because he was Arab or because he was under contract with the Roman army? I think it was the money and his agreement with Titus that mattered, not his ethniciy. In fact, if the soldier considered himself as a Roman soldier (and not as an Arab) then how can we now interpret the phrase based on his ethnicity when the soldier viewed himself as Roman? Even in the modern day, a solider is identified by the uniform he wears not by his ethnicity. If he wears the uniform of the U S Marines, whether he is from China or Saudi Arabia, he will be identified, not by his ethnicity, but by his uniform. Same thing for the soldiers in Dan 9:26; they wore the insignia of Rome. Didn’t matter where they were from because their uniform identified them as a Roman soldier. In fact, they “lost” their ethnicity once they donned the uniform. Consider the janissaries who served alongside Muslims at the fall of Constantinople. They were born in Christian lands but as part of the “humiliation tax” paid by their parents to their Muslim lords, they came under the dominion of the Sultan. They served as the sultan’s protectorate, i.e., personal body guards, as well as the front lines of any jihad (for example the fall of Constantinople). Were they still considered Christians because they were born in Chrsitan lands and perhaps had even been converted to Christianity before being given over to the Muslims? No. They were Muslims from that point forward; ethnicity was irrelvant because they were now under the authority, dominion, and control of Islam. Again, the same is present in Dan 9:26. Ethnicity was irrelevant to Arab under the control, by contract, of Caesar. This would have been the way the mercenary of that day would have seen his obligation to Caesar; and, to interpret the verse to mean something other than its basic, clear meaning to the people of that day seems to strip the text of its truth.

      Of course, in the Islamic Paradigm whether we use the interpretation you are using or the one that I am suggesting, we still end up with 9:27 being an Islamic AC. I know that and agree with that, but I think how we get there is very important (as I know you and ICA, etc believe). I also know that this particular issue is the weakest “piece of the puzzle” in my own interpretation of the Islamic Paradigm, not because I suggest Constantinople and Hagia Sophia to replace Jersulem and the Temple, but because this view requires me to broaden the meaning of the passage to Christians when the specific language of the text seems to limit it to Jews and Jerusalem. I hope to share the reasoning for my view in a future post. My request is that you consider what I am suggesting with an open mind instead of having already decided what the text means. If we do not give each other that same perspective, we will be unable to find the truth – and, I covenant with you to do likewise. ICA’s article is excellent, and I intend to go back to the drawing board on this issue. Regardless, it is always good to post in this site. I respect the great work that you have all done and continue to do, and I learn so much every time I ‘step on the wasp’s nest’!

      Blessings.

      Like

  31. 05/10/2012 at 3:02 PM

    Kurt J – I mentioned that those of the Roman Paradigm would label the “ethnicity” view as “stretching” it to say the least. Here is one such label from David Reagan where he calls it “grasping for straws in the wind” (Lion and Lamb,January, 2009, p 10):

    Click to access Lamplighter_JanFeb09_ACMuslim.pdf

    Like

    • 05/10/2012 at 3:29 PM

      I read Reagan’s review of Richardson’s first book in your link – boy, he really slams it. He even calls Richardson a chicken, in so many words, for using a pseudonym.

      I was not impressed with his criticisms. Whether a well-known author and commentator agrees with a particular point or not doesn’t tip me one way or the other – I am willing to listen to others’ interpretations, and will judge by scripture alone. Nobody has 100% agreement with somebody else, in the end. Its just the nature of “the beast” – apt word in this case.

      I’ll get to your longer post above, hopefully tonight.

      Like

    • ICA
      05/10/2012 at 3:39 PM

      Dr. David Reagan uses that argument to argue against an Islamic Antichrist. He’s sincere in what he believes I am sure, but he has not and will not correct his “research” when he’s been shown to be incorrect. For example, to my knowledge he still asserts that the belief in al Mahdi is limited to Shia Islam only, and is not believed by Sunnis. In an email exchange with Joel Richardson in late 2008, Dr. Reagan wrote that he had “read extensively regarding Islamic eschatology, and every expert I have ever consulted has stated that the concept of a Mahdi is characteristic of Shi’it (sic) thought, and not Sunni.”

      If Dr. Reagan shows little regard for demonstrable facts with something as significant as this, I’d be wary to consider other arguments he may put forth in an effort to undermine any number of positions he would argue against.

      http://www.lamblion.us/2009/01/antichrist-muslim-gods-war-on-terror.html

      Like

      • 05/10/2012 at 5:43 PM

        ICA – I could not agree with you more about Reagan. I was not offering Reagan’s view to support my view but to show that the weakness of the ethnicity view will be exploited by Roman paradigmers.

        Like

  32. Anonymous
    05/10/2012 at 3:32 PM

    Jack – So, if I am understanding you correctly, then the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel to which Jesus directed us in Matt. 24:15-21 is actually referring to the destruction of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople in 1453 AD?

    Boy, my head is going in so many different directions, but I’ll zero in on a couple of things:

    1) IF Jesus was referring to the destruction of Constantinople, then why warn “those who are in Judea” to flee to the mountains? Istanbul/Constantinople is over 700 miles away from Jerusalem, its fall would have no impact on the people of Judea in 1453.

    2) I have the same problem with this interpretation as I have with any interpretation of Matt. 24 from an historicist or preterist POV. In v.21 Jesus declares that at the time of that abomination there would be “great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.” There is no question that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD involved horrific carnage, but not the worst distress that the world has ever seen by a long shot. Nor could that be said for the siege of Constantinople.

    Just a couple of observations, which I would guess you have already pondered for yourself.

    BTW – I am a sister. :) Unusual, I know, but there are a few of us out here who love to dig into the prophetic scriptures.

    AHF (AtHisFeet)

    Like

    • 05/10/2012 at 4:38 PM

      AHF – yeah, my head seems to always be doing that in this area! Nice to meet you, sister AHF!

      No, I think the abomination of desolation that Jesus is referring to in Matt 24:15 is the Dome of the Rock (see http://whenthepiecesfit.org/images/chapter6.justreadgraffiti.pdf), also referred to in 2 Thess 2:4. I interpret the Dome of the Rock as representative (sort of like an “abomination of desolation type”) of the cumulative abominations of Islam, beginning in the 7th century AD, when Christians (and Jews) of the Middle East were routed from their cities and lands. The abomination of desolation is defined by the original “abomination of desolation” at the hand of Antiochus Ephiphanes IV,168 BC. Antiochus IV is an “antichrist type,” and his actions are considered an abomination of desolation because he rendered Israel desolate of her God. He did this by prohibiting circumcision, observing the sabbath, and reading of the Torah by the Jewish people. In sum, Antiochus sought to replace Judaism with Hellenism. His actions were culminated by the sacrifice of a pig on the altar of sacrifice thereby rendering the Jews bereft of their God and their Temple, and therefore “desolate.” The Dome of the Rock was erected in the late 7th century to exalt Muhammad’s “Night Journey” (what a joke), and Muhammad’s superiority to Jesus Christ (Muhammad ascended the ladder to heaven and passed Jesus and John the Baptist on the first stage; only Muhammad could ascend all the way to heaven for an audience w the great Allah…). The Dome of the Rock is plastered with Arabic script, interior and exterior, declaring Jesus not to be the Son of God, and therefore Muhammad as superior. If you want an example of 1 John 2:18, 21-22 and its “identifiers” of the Antichrist, just read the Arabic script on the Dome. The Dome stands on the Temple Mount as a blasphemy to Jesus, Christianity, Judaism, and God the Father (2 Thess 2:4, Rev 13:6), and Islam’s superiority to Christianity. The Dome was erected on the Temple Mount, the same location as the Holy of Holies (it sets upon the foundation stone that the Ark of the Covenant once sat), the place reserved by God for Himself and now inhabited by satan’s bag-boy, Allah (Rev 13:2, 4), the first beast of Rev 13, and Muhammad, the “head that was slain” of the first beast.

      I am not sure I would take Matt 24:15, “flee to the mountains,” literally, in the sense that it will only take place once; rather, metaphorically, for the people of Jerusalem being forced out of their homes, cities, under threat of death by an “Antiochus type.” This happened in Jerusalem on at least two occasions after 70 AD. In 135 AD Emperor Hadrian erected a temple to Zeus on the Temple Mount which resulted in the 2nd Jewish Rebellion. This Jewish rebellion resulted in the loss of life to many Jews since they saw the erection of the Hadrian’s temple on the Temple Mount as another blasphemy that had to be revolted against (Hadrian also changed the name of the city to “Aelia Capitolina.”). This revolt was also unsuccessful and resulted in the loss of many lives. The final time this “abomination type” will occur is likely found in Ezek 38 which prophesies of Jerusalem’s destruction, but, I believe only for 42 months, Rev 11:2), or Dan 9:27. In my view, the mid-point, i.e., 42 months, is precisely prophesied in Dan 9:27 when “on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate,” referring to the time of the wrath of God, i.e., the Great Tribulation (Dan 12:1, Matt 24:21), the most terrible time in human history.

      Now, I bet you I just stepped on another wasp’s nest!! Yahoooooo! Oh, I forgot about Constantinople. Beats me.

      Like

  33. 05/11/2012 at 1:54 AM

    Jack Smith :
    Of course, in the Islamic Paradigm whether we use the interpretation you are using or the one that I am suggesting, we still end up with 9:27 being an Islamic AC. I know that and agree with that, but I think how we get there is very important (as I know you and ICA, etc believe). I also know that this particular issue is the weakest “piece of the puzzle” in my own interpretation of the Islamic Paradigm, not because I suggest Constantinople and Hagia Sophia to replace Jersulem and the Temple, but because this view requires me to broaden the meaning of the passage to Christians when the specific language of the text seems to limit it to Jews and Jerusalem.

    You’re right, we still end up with an Islamic AC, but I think we are just going to have to disagree on 9:26 at least (I think with your interpretation of v26 you actually have misinterpreted chapter 9 in its entirety). I’ve stated my beliefs; you understand my reasoning (and of course anybody else who sees it the same way I do). I understand yours too, although you are free to buttress your arguments for my/our consideration.

    I am curious what you thought of the Historicist interpretation of Rev 9 that I shared early this morning.

    Jack Smith :
    My request is that you consider what I am suggesting with an open mind instead of having already decided what the text means. If we do not give each other that same perspective, we will be unable to find the truth – and, I covenant with you to do likewise.

    I always try to have an open mind. After all, I’ve already changed it several times over the last few years. I just feel very confident at this point in my understanding of it, quite honestly. I recommend getting a copy of Joel’s latest book “Mideast Beast”. I think you’ll be surprised at how thoroughly he considers each of his topics in terms of research, opposing opinions and his exegesis. He builds a very convincing case.

    Jack Smith :ICA’s article is excellent, and I intend to go back to the drawing board on this issue. Regardless, it is always good to post in this site. I respect the great work that you have all done and continue to do, and I learn so much every time I ‘step on the wasp’s nest’!
    Blessings.

    You too, good night.

    Like

    • 05/11/2012 at 9:10 PM

      Kurt J – I cant for the life of me find the earlier question about the historicist view and Rev 9 re Constantinople. That said, I am not historicist but futurist, i.e., when I come to most of the book of Revelation, I see it not yet fulfilled (Rev 6 and later). In Rev 9 (5th trumpet), I do not see the advent of Islam or the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire. Rev 9:4 includes the limitation of the “locusts” power to only those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads so how can the advent of Islam be the prophesied event? I can see why some see elements in the chapter as representative of different aspects of Islam; e.g., the “fire, smoke, and brimstone,” could be perceived to be the use of the canon at Constantinople. My perspective sees little of the Roman Empire, Roman Church in Revelation, and although I see Constantinople as significant in the history of the Church, I dont see how the Muslm armies coming against it fulfill the “200 Million” prophecy.

      Sorry for the rambling reply. Oh, I will reconsider my view of Dan 9:26; and, if I come to a different view, I will make it very public. I am less confident of this view already, but my, my, it will be a difficult pill to swallow (but I think the Lord says, “God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble.” I love Grace!). Its interesting, I am less confident in my own view but more confident in the weakness of the ethnicity view.

      I am thinking on a view that lessens the emphasis on ethnicity to identify the “people”; that is, the text is not talking about one destruction of Jerusalem (or one people, i.e., the Arabs), but many destructions of Jerusalem, including the 70 AD destruction plus the many, many times that satan has used different people groups to make war against Jerusalem and her inhabitants (Jews and othewise). Notice that 9:26b states, “and its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.” Desolation is plural, not singular; so if Jerusalem is the city (not Constantinople!), we begin w the Romans in 70 AD, but continue thru the desolations by many peoples of the blessed city, the holy city, of the Jews. As I have looked at the text in our discussions, it seems to be referring to far more than the Romans who are the initial conquerors and far more than the Arabs who were the initial “ethnics” used by the Romans. Eric Cline wrote a book, “Jerusalem Besieged” wherein he describes the many, many times that Jerusalem has been the object of an attack by an outside force (even thru 20th century attacks by the Arabs and/or Eygptians). The “people” under such a view would be any “antichirst” inspired force, Roman, Arab, or otherwise. The Prince, of course, is not so much Titus as he is “Titus, inspiried by satan, the Prince.” (It is interesting that in Dan 10, the term “prince” is used there to describe spiritual beings, not human beings). Titus, inspired by satan, did destroy the only Temple, and he did keep Jerusalem under Roman control, but many leaders followed who also besieged Jerusalem, and also took control of the city. The text does not require the Temple be destroyed more than once as it does the city (deslotions). This view leads quite nicely to 9:27 where the last false prophet, i.e., the Antichrist, attempts the final desolation, and then is, himself, rendered desolate by the Christ as he is ultimately judged in the Lake of Fire. This also fits the whole context of 9:24-27 (because it allows the “bringing in” …. the anointing of the most holy place, the Millennial Temple) as well as Jesus’ words in Luke 13:34-35, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! … Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ”

      Sorry for being so long winded. I preach the same way!

      Blessings!

      Like

      • 05/11/2012 at 11:59 PM

        Here’s what I wrote that you couldn’t find:

        “Jack,

        First off, I entirely agree with you about the importance of Constantinople and tragedy of its fall. It was a major event and in my view a much greater “war crime” than the Crusades, which were more or less part of the ongoing response to Islam’s advance – we don’t really hear about that though.

        Second, are you aware of the Historicist (I used to primarily be one) interpretation of Rev 9 of the 5th and 6th trumpets? The fifth being the advent of Islam and the 6th being its advance to the west? There is much to mine there, but specifically these verses could describe the siege of Constantinople and its fall:

        16 The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. [symbolic: 200 million = a lot, or including demons, or, over time]

        17 And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; [colors Islamic armies wore] and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone. [first use of cannon in war; cannons were forged to have heads of lions]

        18 A third of mankind [1/3 of the Roman Empire; the south was gone; the east is in view here, only the west remains] was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths. [cannon]

        19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths [where the shot comes out] and in their tails [where the fuse is lit]; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm.

        It could be that here Constantinople’s fall is pictured, but I hold to the “Mideast Beast” understanding of Dan 9:26. I will reply to your other post later.

        Blessings and fruitfulness to you.”

        Like

  34. 05/12/2012 at 3:03 AM

    Hey guys. This is intense! I used to love to get into discussions like these however, they left me empty afterwards. My only question is, if Revelation was a book that is already done and out the door, where is Jesus?, where is the peace?, where is satan bound for 1,000 yrs? The evil one is here, alive, and blessing his servants immediately. His power is here and those that serve him have increased power – I’ve seen this upfront and personal. Too, people who know God, are pointing people to His righteounsess, love Him, are called according to His purpose, doing His ‘exploits’/works, are being torn to bits. The last half of Daniel 11 and slices of Daniel 12 fit perfectly into verses of Revelation and appear to be increasing in volume and frequency. The amount of personal tragedy in believer’s lives, one after the other, speaks loudly that these things are not merely the psychological and emotional tolls of a bad economy but a specific scenario that God has foreordained. Blatant deception and wickedness is beyond the imagination at this stage of the process and to assist each other in surviving day to day, we need to do something very simple for each other – love one another and be helper’s of each others joy. Get ‘er done guys, God bless, JJJHS

    Like

  35. Willard
    05/13/2012 at 11:28 AM

    Jack – Not sure all will agree with me on the below but I see another verse a second witness so to speak that supports Dan 9:26 as it is speaking about these same people whom Daniel referes to as THE PEOPLE of the Prince who will come and it is Zech – you will need to check the link below to see the borders of the Greek empire for the Sons of Greece.

    Zec 9:13 I will bend Judah as I bend my bow and fill it with Ephraim. I will rouse your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece, and make you like a warrior’s sword Zec

    9:14 Then the LORD will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south,

    Zec 9:15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them. They will destroy and overcome with slingstones. l They will drink and roar as with wine; they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling the corners of the altar.

    Zec 9:16 The LORD their God will save them on that day as the flock of his people. They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown.

    Zec 9:17 How attractive and beautiful they will be! Grain will make the young men thrive, and new wine the young women

    http://gaialab.asu.edu/DAAHL/GML.php Check this map reference Hellenistic empire

    This map of Greeces vast empire includes all of the lands ruled by Alexander and his four generals – today 99% of these ancient Greek lands are all Islamic.

    Interrestingly it is also these exact same lands including the Balkans that produced all the Roman Legions (The people of the Prince to come) that destroyed Jerusalem and Judah in 70 AD.

    What I really find intriging about Zec in verse 13 we are told that God will AROUSE the sons of Zion against the sons of Greece – to me this sounds like a pre-empitive attack much like 1967 and we are further told that 14) his arrow will flash like lighting 15) the Lord will protect them and they will destroy with sligstones – sling stones I see as a possible description for the Missiles of Israel.

    David used a slingstone to kill Goliath the first Missile attack in history for Israel – Goliath was a fore runner picture of the A/C – Lets us not forget David chose five smooth sling stones – there are still four of those left in his sling bag?? Unless three were used prophectically in the three major wars of Israel that affected all the nations surrounding Israel which attacked at the same time like in the wars of 1948, 1967, 1973, (20-??) There were many other wars but these three involved all the surrounding nations at the same time.

    Like

    • 05/13/2012 at 1:10 PM

      Willard,

      I just finished “Mideast Beast” by Joel Richardson. He doesn’t use these verses to support his Dan 9:26 reading, but I want to mention something about his interpretational method before I make a comment or two. He applies the “double fulfillment” approach to prophecy, especially Messianic and Antichristic ones. For example, of Isaiah 7:14, “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel” Joel writes that “this prophecy actually refers to an even in Isaiah’s day when a young girl [Kurt: alma] bore a child and named him Immanuel.”

      While Joel never actually used the term “double fulfillment”- he used the term “prophetic foreshadowing” (a term I am much more comfortable with) – he definitely took the foreshadowing much further than I do. I actually agree with him on his view of Dan 8, that although he understands it completely fulfilled by Antiochus, he also sees strong foreshadowing of the Antichrist. That’s fine. But in the case of Isaiah, talking about the invasion of Israel by the Assyrians, he says (more or less, not going to try to find the exact quote) that parts were fulfilled in the past, or that the prophecy was incompletely fulfilled in the past, and that parts remain to be fulfilled; that we need to keep the big picture in mind, that weaving through all these prophecies is the return of the Messiah and the establishment of his kingdom.

      So the long and the short of what I’m trying to say is that I am softening on the “one prophecy, one fulfillment” stand that I’ve verbalized elsewhere (i.e., Joels Trumpet).

      Back to Zechariah: he started his ministry about 520 BC, 16 years after the first exilees began returning to Israel from Babylon. He prophesied about the Greeks. The Hellenistic Empire had not yet overtaken the Persian. So his prophecy may well have been partially fulfilled by events that took place in the 2nd Century BC, when the Greeks were repelled by the Maccabees and coming of the Romans. Yet there is definitely a Messianic and Millennial overtone to the passage. Additionally the Hellenistic Empire (Beast 3) overlaps to a great degree with the Persian and even Babylonian – Beasts 1 & 2. So although what we call Greece today may not be at war with Israel (they are currently allies), Joel, when interpreting prophecy, uses the prophetic-literal approach with one parameter being ‘what was the geographic region of the empire being discussed during biblical times’? That would be to a large extent Turkey, from where the Greeks originated, actually.

      Also to summarize: I think you are correct that this is a corroborating scripture with Dan 9:26.

      Like

  36. Willard
    05/13/2012 at 5:46 PM

    kurt – I have to get that book – wonder if it is availbe on Kindel yet

    Most people understand and see Alexander as a Greek which he was – but he did not come from Greece per say he was sometimes called the Macedonian because he came from Macedonia. Today with a very large population of Muslims. – Not sure how this will all end but Greece like it or not even today is determining the direction of the world at least the finacial world – if it leaves Europe or goes bankrupt the world we know today will change very fast and I am afraid that it will not be for the better – what does Daniel say (like a flood)

    To get the full picture of Zech 9:13 I think we need to do a verse by verse study all the way into chap 11 as these sons of Greece seem to cover a lot of history. It referes to the coming of Zions king – Christ riding into Jerusalem on a donkey (after the Maccabees)

    Even Daniel could not understand all that he seen in his visions so we should not expect to see it all either I suppose

    His rule would be from sea to sea – still future

    Zec 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.

    The prisioners would be freed and twice as much restored to Israel – in progess but still also future

    Zec 9:11 As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit. Zec 9:12 Return to your fortress, O prisoners of hope; even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you.

    They would be saved on that day and they would sparkle – I see this as still future

    Zec 9:16 The LORD their God will save them on that day as the flock of his people. They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown.

    Has the house of Joseph been saved yet and restored ??

    Zec 10:6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah and save the house of Joseph. I will restore them because I have compassion on them. They will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the LORD their God and I will answer them.
    Zec 10:7 The Ephraimites will become like mighty men, and their hearts will be glad as with wine.Their children will see it and be joyful; their hearts will rejoice in the LORD

    The below from 70 AD scattering also Kurt the full gathering we have yet to see fullfilled

    Zec 10:9 Though I scatter them among the peoples, yet in distant lands they will remember me. They and their children will survive, and they will return.
    Zec 10:10 I will bring them back from Egypt and gather them from Assyria. I will bring them to Gilead p and Lebanon, and there will not be room enough for them.

    Still ahead of us

    Zec 10:11 They will pass through the sea of trouble; the surging sea will be subdued and all the depths of the Nile will dry up. Assyria’s pride will be brought down and Egypt’s scepter will pass away.
    Zec 10:12 I will strengthen them in the LORD and in his name they will walk, ” declares the LORD.

    There is more still ahead – but if we look at it as one big picture it seems to connect with Dan 9:26

    Regards the dual or shadow prophicies – I have always seen this to be true from my perspective – when the one angel was asked when all of the things seen in the book of Daniel would be fulfilled – this was towards the end of his life – he was told the below – I see the statement – when the power of the holy people is broken – as the end time when the Jews will finally give up their own self centered strength in themselves and finally recognize Christ it is then that ALL things will be completed

    Da 12:7 ……………………… When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed

    Like

    • JJJHS aka AKA
      06/11/2012 at 2:02 AM

      Good stuff Willard. I find it amazing that especially Zechariah an Isaiah, that YHWH God, talks about a 3rd person named the LORD. Do you think this is a message similar to Genesis 19:24?

      12 And I will strengthen them in the LORD; and they shall walk up and down in His name, saith the LORD.

      I and His………………. I think Proverbs 30:4 is a good hint.

      Blessings

      Like

  37. Willard
    05/13/2012 at 6:06 PM

    I should have added Kurt that one of the reasons as I have argued on JT is that I see both Persia and Greece (sons of Greece) in Daniel 8 being around in the end days is because of the history I see in Zech chapters 9 to 11 – it alway boils down to this verse 9;26 in Daniel – THE PEOPLE (sons of Greece) of the Prince who will come – these so called sons of Greece are also the Ishmaelites, Esau, the Assyrians – it is these people – this DNA of THE PEOPLE who destroyed Jerusalem who will be 10 nations, ten horns, who will unite and bring to power the A/C

    Like

  38. 06/10/2012 at 5:22 PM

    Yes Midnight Watcher I agree with you completely and cover this exact subject in Chapter 2 of my new book which was published earlier this year. It is titled Hidden In Plain Sight: The Signposts of the Coming of the Antichrist Revealed. My publicist said she was going to send you folks an email about it with a press release. I have attached an executive summary – 10 charts giving a summary of the book. She should have also offered the book to you for your review if you were interested.

    A brother by the name of James who comments on your site regularly, read my book and not only gave it an excellent review but said I needed to contact you about my book.

    I urge you to review it. What makes this book different as the title implies is that events going on in the Middle East for the last 30 years or so, going on right now, and continuing on into our near future are all spelled out and foretold by the Bible. The popular notion that nothing more must happen prophetically until the Rapture (if you are pre-Trib) or the Tribulation (if you are not pre-Trib) is not true. God in His Word is giving His church a series of events that is a countdown the final end times events. Sounds incredible and too good to be true but it is true. It is a scholastic work written for the layperson. It delves into many centuries of history to show how Bible prophecy for the end-times should be interpreted.

    The book starts with the assumption of an Islamic Antichrist rather than a Roman one, shows why the Bible actually argues for a Muslim Antichrist, why prophecy does indeed spell out these end time events, and finally checks the findings of this interpretation of the Bible against real world events – and they match. The last event that took place that was a fulfillment was the democratization of Iraq. The executive summary shows the outline of the book.

    I show why the iron leg empire of Daniel 2 is Islam and not Rome. I show why the people of the ruler in Daniel 9 are Syrians and not Europeans. I show why Daniel 7 and 8 actually have an end-time fulfillment and lay out a series of events going on right now.

    Events that have occurred or are occuring that are called out by the Bible specifically are –
    1) Saddam Hussein’s reign
    2) Democratization of Iraq
    3) Preparation of Egypt, Syria, Turkey and Albania for their role to come shortly
    4) Power struggle in Iran’s government.

    I give you this prediction and it may not seem like it will happen but the Bible says it will. The Supreme Leader of Iran will become the second-ranked leader of Iran, and then Iran will start a major war, in that order. And it will probably happen in the next couple of years as the Supreme Leader may be ending the office of the president in June 2013. This will be a crucial time. And yes, specifically, the Supreme Leader will become second ranked just before the war. I say this so that you will remember this note.

    And this is why the message of this book is so important – the significance of the events to come needs to be shown to the church that the events aren’t chaos but all part of God’s concrete plan. We are now seeing the series of events leading to the Antichrist and finally to Christ Himself. It is to teach us to read and understand the fig leaves as it were, as Christ told us to do so we can understand the season we are in. I believe that this is prophecy becoming unsealed.

    I urge you to read and review this book. Time is short and the message is important. I am available for interviews and/or dialogue.

    Thank you and God Bless you,
    Mark Davidson

    Like

    • 06/11/2012 at 9:42 PM

      Mark – I think the most important point you made in your post is about the church. The church is oblivious to what is coming. It must be warned; and your book (and the writings of many others similarly written) are the evidence that God is warning His children in these times that difficult times are coming. God warns us so that when the difficult times come, we will not despair, but take courage that He is in control of all things — for this is how we know that He is the Lord (Ezekilel 6:10).

      Blessings to you Mark, and I trust that God will bless your work.

      Jack Smith

      Like

      • JJJHS
        06/11/2012 at 10:33 PM

        Hi JS. Questions: The RCC says the typical “well if the Holy Spirit is leading everyone, and everyone disagrees, well is the Holy Spirit leading everyone”. It is a valid point but is usually directed at people that disagree with them. continued…

        Like

  39. JJJHS
    06/11/2012 at 10:50 PM

    Following that same or similar progression (A leads to B leads to C): Would God not warn His people, and equip prophets/messengers/servants about the times that are here, and the times to come? If we are to go through the times of Revelation, Daniel, Zechariah, etc.., which many of us are to varying degrees, why are some churches teaching we will float away? Wouldn’t this tie in to 14:14 Jeremiah, when God warned about the false prophets? Not pointing to the obvious FP’s, cash money swindlers and adrenaline healers, but to the ones that say “no sword or famine” will touch this land.(?)

    I am not any better than any person at all, but I have tried to understand this for a long time. If a teacher is telling the people that we won’t go through extremely difficult times (like our borthers and sisters in the middle east, africa, south china sea area and what people are going through even here, yes here) what does this say? Is the Holy Spirit leading them to say this? Is this their own thouhgts and feelings? Is this their interpretation of a doctrine that sounds good? Is it a total disconnect from suffering members of the body? Is it that there is not current real suffering in the lives of those that preach about it and thus everything is fine? Why would God NOT want His people to prepare themselves for a spiritual battle royale?

    As I have mentioned before I am not pre-trib. If it does happen that way, fine, but I cannot see anything to support it scripturally.

    The prudent forseeth the trouble and hide themselves, the simple pass on and are punished. I rather be spiritually-mentally overprepared and something or nothing happen than to not prepare myself and the bottom falls out.

    Blessings.

    Like

  40. 09/20/2012 at 12:51 PM

    This is an excellent article. I often wonder why the proponents of a European Antichrist never discuss the origin of the Antichrist from Rev. 13:2?

    Proponents of a European Antichrist miss the point

    In splitting hairs concerning Dan. 9:26, that does not teach that the Antichrist comes from Europe, they forget the following:

    The Antichrist comes from the following empires and the emphasis is on the region from which he comes instead of one empire:

    1 The beast comes from the fourth empire which is the Roman Empire. (Daniel 2).

    2 The fifth empire that is described as the iron and clay is not the forth empire. (Dan. 2:41). Now he is coming from the fourth and fifth empires.

    3 The little horn in Daniel 7 is again describing the Roman Empire and Dan. 8 the same little horn comes from the Greek Empire – or the Syrian Division of the Greek empire. This is no contradiction, seeing that the Roman Empire does not necessarily refer to the Western leg or European part. It certainly indicates the Eastern division or the Byzantine Roman Empire. That would include the leopard, lion and bear – that is completely outside of Europe (Rev. 13:2). Why would anyone insist on the European part of the Roman Empire that does not correspond at all with Rev. 13:2?

    4 The Antichrist also comes from three empires, namely Greece (leopard), Babylon (lion) and Mede-Persia (bear). (Rev. 13:2). How do we move these Eastern Empires to the West or Europe? The point is that the description of these empires refers to the same region which is outside Europe but includes the Byzantine Roman Empire.

    5 The kingdom of the Antichrist is located after the Roman Empire had officially expired:

    And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains [Not the spiritualized city of Rome], on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, [Egypt, Babylon, Mede-Persia, Greece] and one is [Roman Empire], and the other is not yet come [NONE OF THE PREVIOUS EMPIRES CAN COMPLETELY BECOME THE SEVENTH]; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth [This is not the Antichrist, but an Angel of Greece or third beast that will revive the wounded Ottoman Empire], and is of the seven [Ottoman Empire], and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings [That will come out of the revived Ottoman Empire], which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. (Rev. 17:9-12)

    If the seventh Empire is from Rome, then the eight must also come from Rome. That would mean the last two empires and eight kingdom is all from Rome. This clearly refutes what John is trying to convey: “ … and the other is not yet come; … “. This means that NO SPECIFIC EMPIRE THAT EXISTED BEFORE THE SIXTH (ROMAN EMPIRE) CAN BECOME THE ULTIMATE EMPIRE OF THE BEAST. What we can deduct from prophecy is that all the metals will simultaneously be destroyed at Armageddon according Daniel 2. This means that the kingdom of the beast consists of all the metals that represent the land or regions. The Eastern leg of the Roman Empire perfectly fits in with the old Ottoman Empire and overlapped to a large extent the Greek -, Mede-Persian and Babylon Empires.

    Daniel and Revelation cannot contradict each other. Proponents of an European Antichrist stop at Daniel 7 and unknowingly deny Dan 8-11 where the Greek character of the beast is explained. The point is that the regions described by various empires includes among others the Roman Empire. Forgive my bad English.

    Martin Gunther (South Africa).

    Like

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