Home > Radical Islam > Pakistan: Muslim Extremists Attack Christian Homes, Set Fire to Churches

Pakistan: Muslim Extremists Attack Christian Homes, Set Fire to Churches


By Jibran Khan – “Lahore (AsiaNews) – Tensions are running high in Gujranwala, a town in the Pakistani province of Punjab, recent scene of repeated attacks by Muslim extremists against the Christian minority. Yesterday, a mob attacked Christian homes and places of worship, setting fire to a number of churches. Only the action of police prevented any loss of life and injuries. The attacks were sparked by reports that a burnt copy of the Qur‘an had been found on Saturday. Muslim religious leaders responded by urging people to attack Christians. Scared for their lives, many families fled the area. Meanwhile, the authorities have begun enforcing Section 144 of the Pakistan Penal Code to limit public assemblies to a maximum of four people.”  Read more.

  1. Kurt J.
    05/03/2011 at 3:39 PM

    You know what I find interesting, and what I think is a sign of a sovereign God, is how Osama Bin Laden was not found until nearly 10 years after 9/11. If he would have been killed in the weeks or months immediately following that event, very little of the current Islamic fervor we see would have developed or matured as it has. Instead, America/the West went to war in several Muslim nations, now lasting nearly a decade, seen by the Islamic Community (what’s the Arabic word again, ICA?) more as a war on Islam than on “terror.”

    Bin Laden gained many sympathizers over this period that he initially didn’t have. Yes, in 2001 many Muslims were happy that he poked the Great Satan in the eye, but others weren’t so happy that he was one of them. Now in 2011, I’m afraid the reaction is going to be terrible acts against unfortunate Christians in their lands.

    By surviving so long Osama showed that perhaps America isn’t so great and powerful after all. Al Qaeda was able to perpetrate further acts of terror. He shone a light on the glories of being a radical; that small, grass roots movements can have disproportionate effects in both western and Middle Eastern countries.

    Its like he wasn’t allow to die until his purpose has been fulfilled, both in the East and West. In the West I would say God has been asking, “Will you turn to Me? Will you walk with Me?” Though there are certainly pockets of revival and life, I would say that has been predominantly answered in the negative.

    God is sovereign over both good and evil. He uses both. I’m reading Isaiah and there are numerous passages that indicate this. God didn’t somehow change when we flipped from OT to NT.

    As the heat is turned up, hopefully the frogs will come to their senses. May we be faithful, have the courage and have the insight how to best blow the warning trumpets.

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  2. ICA
    05/03/2011 at 7:04 PM

    The word is the Ummah.

    One chapter is over, now a new one begins. But where will this one end, and will it include the finale?

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  3. 05/03/2011 at 10:40 PM

    Kurt – I too am reading Isaiah right now and I think what we see happening in the world today is quite similar to what happened in the days of the Assyrians and the Babylonians God used or allowed them both to punish and disipline the Jewish people and in turn he also destroyed them for destroying the Jewish people (his people) Who can understand Gods ways?? I guess these are the tools he uses to disiplne and bring attention back to himself, the threat of Islam, earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, tsunamis, disasters

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  4. Kurt J.
    05/04/2011 at 1:54 AM

    I saw “Frontlines” tonight; it ended with an interview with an expert on Al Qaeda; he made the observation that Bin Laden’s original intent was to foment the overthrow of dictators and royalty in the ME, as well as expel the “infidels” from there. He survived to see the beginnings of that with the revolutions and demonstrations in Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, etc.

    Its like a torch has been passed in some sort of evil relay race.

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  5. ICA
    05/04/2011 at 9:51 AM

    Almost makes one wonder if the first beast is already present, and that it’s the second one that is beginning to rise from within…

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  6. 05/04/2011 at 2:53 PM

    ICA – I think that you hit the nail on the head the first beast (the fourth kingdom) is Islam politically, religiously, Sharialy, but this entire system which is a Kingdom within itself at this point and historically has been leaderless (remember they are waiting for their leader the Mahdi) and Islam is in great turmoil at the moment but I believe that out of this turmoil will come that second BEAST the A/C

    I keep seeing Dan 7:5 and also a picture in Rev 13:2 this Bear (Persia) with the three ribs in his mouth as being just around the corner, with the three ribs possibly being Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq ?? Now for the most part under Iran control or influence

    Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. Rev 13:12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed

    The Beast out of the Earth or the second Beast I think will be the A/C who will rule Islam the hater of Israel and the church – he exercised the authority over the first Beast – Islam claims to be a religion of Peace (two horns of a lamb) but it speaks like a Dragon which again fits Islam Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, etc – and then he forced the earth and all people to worship the first Beast which is the fourth kingdom and the Beast ISLAM – the head wound which is Islam being healed possibly after the fall of the Ottoman Turks being revived today at the bitter end – the Ottoman Empire was the uniting head in this part of the world for over 400 years

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  7. Kurt J.
    05/04/2011 at 3:47 PM

    Bravo, Willard.

    ICA, what do you think? I appreciate your Rev 13 verse by verse commentary, but I do like this interpretation of the second beast better… do you see any problems with it?

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  8. ICA
    05/04/2011 at 10:27 PM

    It’s possible, so I don’t see any immediate problems with it, other than the question as to whether or not Antichrist — the “man of lawlessness” of 2 Thess 2:3 — is the direct antithesis to the “one new man” of Eph 2:15, or one specific individual. As I’ve stated elsewhere, if something is possible it should not be outright dismissed imho. Having said that, I do still lean toward an individual but am open to the second beast not being an individual, but a system — radical Islam. I updated the Commentary on Revelation 13 since the initial post and touch on this a bit more I think.

    I don’t believe, however, that the bear with three ribs in its mouth per Dan 7:5 is eschatonic, that is to say, extant today. But I do think that the “dreadful and terrible” fourth beast of Dan 7:7 with ten horns is in play now, the beast wherein a little horn rises up from among the ten, uprooting three of them in its wake (Dan 7:7-8). This fourth beast/kingdom destroys the others before it (cf. Dan 2:40) so it will, however, have ‘elements’ of the others inasmuch as it destroys them by consuming them geographically (cf. Rev 13:2, “the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like [the feet of] a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power …”).

    What are your thoughts?

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  9. 05/05/2011 at 12:38 PM

    ICA – would you not agree that the bear with three ribs in its mouth is a referance to the same beast wherein a little horn that rises up from among the ten, uprooting three of them in its wake and that he also then further connects to the feet that were like a bear – this seems to be consistant picture message with the message of the last day alliance of nation in the ME

    In referance to Rev 13:2 I see this for lack of a better description as an over laying map if you will of the same land mass ruled by the three former or ancient empires we find in Dan 2 the dream of the three empires of metal – John lists them in reverse order because he is looking back over history Leopard (Greece) feet of a bear (persia – three ribs also in a bears mouth pointing to Persia) and mouth of a lion (Babylon)I can not see what else this would be telling us

    Just like Islam today being a fourth empire consisting with Babylon likely representing the religeous side and wealth side meaning the gold and oil money – Persia the silver may represent the law or Sharia side and Greece the militay side of Isalm – Just thinking out loud here

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  10. ICA
    05/05/2011 at 12:51 PM

    The way that I see it is that the bear with the three ribs in its mouth is the second kingdom, one which precedes the era of the fourth and final kingdom from which the little horn rises up from. The way that I view Revelation 13:2 currently is that the Last Days Islamic beast empire is described with certain attributes of the previous kingdoms inasmuch as the final kingdom — the Islamic empire — has devoured them all geographically (and devoured the people of those former kingdoms ideologically as well). Does that answer your question?

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  11. 05/05/2011 at 1:37 PM

    I understand what you are saying but I think this is an end days picture – my reasoning is that Dan 7:3 says that the Four great beasts, were different from the others (historical ones??) and that they came up out of the sea. The first beast in Rev 13 also came up out of the sea represented or had tributes back to the ancient beasts – The first beast in Dan 7 was like a lion which had EAGLE WINGS and he watched UNTIL ITS WINGS WERE TORN OFF (Iraq destroyed or defeated)and given the HEART OF A MAN. See the below link the Coat of Arms of Iraq today is this picture an eagle with wings – a shield that looks like heart in its center – the wings have TEN feathers and the tail has THREE tail feathers – and what really stands out is that he the eagle stands upright on two feet like a man

    Da 7:4 “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_(emblem)_of_Iraq_2008.svg

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  12. ICA
    05/05/2011 at 2:08 PM

    The way that I read it is that they are simply distinct from each other, not different from the others in the sense that there were others that preceded them:

    Daniel 7:3, “And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another” (KJV)

    Daniel 7:3, “And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another” (ESV)

    Daniel 7:3, “And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another” (NASB)

    I think that Daniel just gives us a list of ancient kingdoms in that region and then the End of Days beast empire which he describes as “dreadful and terrible” (7:7), which is today’s Islamic empire that covers the whole region.

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  13. Kurt J.
    05/05/2011 at 3:42 PM

    Daniel 7:3 (KJV):

    And four h703 ארבע ‘arba` (Aramaic)
    great h7260 רב rabrab (Aramaic)
    beasts h2423 חיוא cheyva’ (Aramaic)
    came up h5559 סלק cĕliq (Aramaic)
    from h4481 מן min (Aramaic)
    the sea, h3221 ים yam (Aramaic)
    diverse h8133 שנה shĕna’ (Aramaic)
    one h1668 דא da’ (Aramaic)
    from h4481 מן min (Aramaic)
    another. h1668 דא da’ (Aramaic)

    I would agree with ICA on this, but its hard to tell, because H1668 actually means “this” or “one” or “another”.

    I do like Willard’s find on the Iraq shield. Where do you come up with this stuff??

    Also, if not a complete verse by verse commentary, I would like to see ICA’s interpretation of all the major symbols, perhaps verse by verse or at least by chapter of both Daniel and Rev; then we could start to swap pieces in or out or propose alternates. There’s a lot to keep track of, and if I could have a sort of biblical ‘crib’ sheet it would help!

    Cheers.

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  14. 05/05/2011 at 4:10 PM

    I am a Graphic Artist Kurt and just put it all together – Hey! Just kidding really

    As I said before I lived and worked in the ME oil fields and the Islamic world over 22 plus years – also I was a hostage or a human shield of Saddams during the first Iraq invasion and I have had a great interest in the politics of the ME over the since 1973

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  15. 05/05/2011 at 4:32 PM

    The writing on the shield is called the Takbir – and it mean as follos – also the link below connects us with one of the ancient Gods of Assyria and Babylon – does this not connect with the Coat of Arms in Iraq today – a modern day version – these are my thought any way – we are warned about the Assyrian are we not ??

    For other usages of the phrase “Allahu Akbar”, see Allahu Akbar (disambiguation).
    Arabic – allāhu akbar Translation God is greater/est

    The Takbīr or Tekbir (تَكْبِير) is the Arabic name for the phrase Allāhu Akbar (الله أكبر). Usually translated “God is [the] Greatest,” or “God is Great”, it is a common Islamic Arabic expression, used as both an informal expression of faith and as a formal declaration.

    Islamist usageThe phrase is well known in the west for its ubiquitous use in Islamist protests, and in Islamic extremism, and has become iconic of Islamic terrorism.

    After 9/11, the FBI released a letter reportedly handwritten by the hijackers and found in three separate copies on 9/11—at Dulles, at the Pennsylvania crash site, and in Mohamed Atta’s suitcase. It included a checklist of final reminders for the 9/11 hijackers. An excerpt reads: “When the confrontation begins, strike like champions who do not want to go back to this world. Shout, ‘Allahu Akbar,’ because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers.” Also, in the cockpit voice recorders found at the crash site of Flight 93, the hijackers are heard to be reciting the Takbir as the plane plummeted toward the ground.[6

    The first few paragraphs are worth a read on the below link and how they connect with Assyria and Israel

    http://www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/assyrian-god-nisroch.html

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  16. 05/05/2011 at 4:50 PM

    I think were we can really see this Dan 7:4 ……. it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man,is in the GOd Nisroch

    http://www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/assyrian-god-nisroch.html

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  17. 05/05/2011 at 4:59 PM

    I am not able to figure this out (to limited) but does any one know what the Greek letter value would be of the saying Allahu Akbar – would it by chance be 666 ??

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  18. Kurt J.
    05/06/2011 at 1:33 AM

    There are similarities between the Iraq coat of arms (with the eagle) and the drawing of Nisroch that you linked to.

    Yes I knew you were in the ME, and a hostage, but I forgot that and didn’t relate it to your knowledge of Iraq, sorry.

    A thought (unrelated, but one that occurs to me after reading some of Willard’s posts on JT): Since Christ has not returned, we have the advantage over previous generations of Christians in our interpretation of prophecy, particularly those regarding the end times. I have always believed, even when I was firmly of the Islamic Antichrist belief, that the fourth terrible beast of Daniel was the same as the 4th kingdom/iron legs of 2:40–the Roman Empire. Even the NASB headings call it the Roman Empire. I have, still have, a hard time believing it is anything else. I didn’t believe the Roman Empire was returning, but that interpretation made sense to me. Now I don’t know.

    Could the first, second and third kingdoms of Dan 2, Babylon, Med-Pers and Greece correspond with the Dan 7 beasts (they sure seem to) but not the fourth kingdom (Rome) be the same as the fourth beast in 7:7, Islam?? Doesn’t seem right.

    Another question: Since the beast of 7:11 is slain and given to the burning fire (same as Rev 19:20, thrown in the Lake of Fire?), does 7:12 relate to Rev 20:7-10 when Satan is released for a time to deceive the nations?

    And if that’s the case (which it very well may not be), then what does Dan 7:26 mean–because this says “his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.” This is immediately after the “time, times, and half a time” of v 25, which means there couldn’t be a 1,000 millennial period between Dan 7:11 & 7:12.

    Is anybody following me?

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  19. 05/06/2011 at 1:01 PM

    Kurt – These are my thoughts but I am open to correction if something other seems more better, but I have been studying Daniel more than 30 years and if you read it slow you will soon see visuals of picture after picture of prophecy.
    Daniel over and over and over refers to the end days, last days, time of the end etc, etc, we all understand and know that it is a last days book – One thing I find that most people miss in the book of Daniel is that with the 70 x 7s it begins when they entered the land of Canaan which is clearly seen in Daniels great prayer of repentance in chapter nine. This prayer beginning in 9:5 at least to me points to the bigger picture of this great and wonderful book. Once we understand that these 70 x 7 are also 70 Jubilees of time or a dual prophecy the entire book become much more clear.
    Chap 2 is the out laying history of the world and where these empires began that were used to discipline
    Israel – and when we get to chapter 7 it is the same kingdoms that we seen in chapter two but being revived in the last days. You know me from JT and the many references to this number 2520 which trust me explain many time lines which connect ancient Babylon to present day Babylon.
    That is one reason why this number 2520 as biblical years of time continuously comes up in Daniel connecting time line after time line with the ancient with the present again over and over and over it connects. Even the four Beasts that come out of the sea connect us to Revelation 13 again an end days book with the Beast that came out of the sea. Revelations also in many ways is a pictorial of prophecy but I have much to learn yet in this book. A good example was when AtHisFeet pointed out the fact that the Arab flags correspond to the four horse of Rev 6. Pictures have a much clearer way of seeing and transporting a prophecy message at times that do words. I am a very visual type of person to begin with.
    I think that is maybe why I see Nisroch connecting with the Iraq Coat of Arms – I think the fact that the Assyrian king was killed by his sons in front of this god while worshiping it after returning from the failed attempt to invade Israel is a picture right here of the last days battle. Similar god type and the fact that we are told that his sons killed him reflects the Ezek 38 – 39 battle scenario when we are told that there will be infighting and that they will begin killing each other. I am not sure what the god Nisroch was about I will have to study up on it a bit to see if it and Islam have something in common.
    Studying Daniel and I have spent many hours in his book there is a clear picture that from the first chapter to the last there is progression. The empire progress from Daniels day and are all revived once again in the last days but as one whole of the three. Jesus in Matt 24 when referring to the fig tree which is Israel also refers to the OTHER TREES which again I understand as the other nations that have always affected and surround Israel that we see in the headlines today, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and others.
    That is also why I see the beast in Revelation that looked like a Leopard had feet of a bear and a mouth of a lion being a revived combination of the original three in these last days. No better way to explain prophecy than in picture form. As we read Daniel the progression with more detail of these empires becomes much more clear. Especially with the Greek empire and the part it plays throughout history right to the bitter end. Remember also the stump of the tree that was cut down was BOUND with bronze and iron bands. Again a small picture of the Greek empire bronze belly and thighs continuing into the iron legs, iron may represent Islam (unyielding, not easily swayed or bent, strong in faith)
    Regards Rome it is never mentioned – I challenge anyone to find a number for the iron legs. We go from the bronze #3 directly to the ten toes #4 the iron legs are not mentioned. If the iron does represent Islam (thoughts only) than when it gets to the toes it would explain the clay part better. As we know that Islam has a lot of strength but because of their character of infighting amongst themselves clay would clearly be a good description of this.
    Notice what Dan 7:17 says four beasts WILL ARISE (FUTURE) from the earth. These four beasts are a revived Babylon (Iraq) Persia (Iran) Middle Eastern Greece the part founded by Seleucus, the general under Alexander the Great being revived as the ten nations, ten horns, ten toes, which we see today as we speak all are in sever turmoil. The very same land mass basically, including PUT (Libya)

    Da 7:17 ‘The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.
    Again in Dan 7:19 we see the this picture of the iron and the bronze in the 4th beast when we are told he had teeth of iron and claws of bronze a picture of the bronze belly and thighs and iron legs going into the feet. Verse 20 again tells us that this beast also had ten horns on his head. And three of the horns fell, three ribs in the bears mouth.

    Da 7:19 “Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws……

    Da 7:20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell….

    Your question regards Dan 7:26 is simply the destruction of the A/C by Christ before 7:15 is the vision from 15 onward is Daniels interpretation of this vision or dream.

    These pictures in Daniel remind me of David and Goliath. When the king said that maybe Goliath was more than David could handle what were David’s words – HE KILLED A LION AND A BEAR a clear future picture of what Israel will do to Babylon and Persia which is further clarified in 17:44 another vivid picture of Ezek 38 and 39 when the birds of prey also will in the last battle eat the flesh of kings and rulers and all of the dead on the fields of Armageddon

    1Sa 17:34 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, 1Sa 17:35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.
    1Sa 17:36 Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God

    1Sa 17:44 “Come here,” he said, “and I’ll give your flesh to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field!

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  20. 05/06/2011 at 2:34 PM

    Another thought just putting out there about David. When he went into battle against Goliath he picked up 5 sling stones (missiles) why did he pick up five ?? did he expect to miss four times or four shots ?? We seen his faith before battle it was unyielding and zero doubt – he could have went into battle with one stone such was his faith knowing that God was with him – NO I think MAYBE once again we are given a very small insight into the future – the four left over sling stones may be a picture of Israel wars since 1948 – they have fought many wars but only four of them involved all of the surounding nations Syria, Egypt and Jordan and Lebanon and full support of the other Arab countries

    1) The war of Independance, 2) The War of Attrition, 3) The June 6 day war 4) the Yom Kippur War

    From here on they may be out of bullets or sling stones and are now in Gods hands totally and completly not meaning that they are still not strong they are but that they are almost left now completly on their own and have no other nations supporting them, NONE except Canada and all nations appear to be ready to accept a Palestinian State by Sept Next week May 15th the Muslims plan a wlak to Israel borders – Turkey ios planning another flotilla, England and France just annonced that they will accept a Palistinian State by Sept – SOON VERY SOON WE WILL SEE GOD FIGHT – and what a fight that will be – the world will se the power and glory of God like never in history – OH what a wonderful God we have

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_involving_Israel

    Mothers Day weekend
    God Bless all of our Mothers

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  21. Kurt J.
    05/06/2011 at 3:45 PM

    Willard, thanks for your long replies, of which I read every word. But I still have questions that are not answered, at least to my satisfaction. You did address many interesting points though. OK, to be as clear as possible (BTW, these questions are fair game for anyone to answer):

    1. Are the four kingdoms in Dan 2 (Head of Gold, self ID’ed as Babylon; Breast/arms of silver, thought to be Med-Pers; Belly/thighs of bronze, thought to be Greece; Legs/feet of iron that becomes divided into 10 toes of iron/clay, thought to be the Roman Empire THE SAME as the beasts of Dan 7?

    2. Are the Dan 2 kingdoms the first iteration (occurring during Dan’s time and immediately following) and the Dan 7 beasts THEIR REVIVAL during the End Times?

    3. Dan 2:40 says “there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron”. Seems to be clearly an iron kingdom. Could this be Rome, and the fourth beast of Dan 7 Islam, or do these kingdoms NEED to be THE SAME?

    4. Since the beast of 7:11 is slain and given to the burning fire (same as Rev 19:20, thrown in the Lake of Fire?), does 7:12 relate to Rev 20:7-10 when Satan is released for a time to deceive the nations?

    5. Dan 7:26 says “his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.” This is immediately after the “time, times, and half a time” of v 25. If Dan 7:26 is an expansion or explanation of 7:11, then what of Dan 7:12, which indicates “an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time”?

    I need answers people, ANSWERS. You will be graded on neatness and grammar, so proof read your papers before turning them in. You may begin now.

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  22. AtHisFeet
    05/06/2011 at 10:16 PM

    Hey – not to throw a monkey wrench into the stream of thought here, but in looking once again at Rev. 13, I just thought of something. The second beast, like a lamb with two horns….Don’t horns always represent rulers or individuals? We know that the first beast’s ten horns are ten kings. Could the two horns on the second beast indicate individuals? Some type of religious rulers?

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  23. AtHisFeet
    05/06/2011 at 10:17 PM

    Sorry, Kurt – no answers, just more questions. :)

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  24. AtHisFeet
    05/06/2011 at 10:31 PM

    O.K. – here’s maybe one thought on Kurt’s #3 question: What about the fact that Rome eventually split into eastern and western “legs”? The eastern empire was ruled from Constantinople, which we all know was swallowed up by the Ottoman empire, the beast which was wounded and revived.

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  25. Willard
    05/07/2011 at 12:21 PM

    I am out of town but just a quick note – on #3 maybe??? the 2 iron legs are the Sunnis and the Shiites regards the iron it says STRONG AS IRON not that it is iron – there is a differeance being iron or strong AS iron – but I know we believe it to be iron – do not have my bible with me

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  26. Kurt J.
    05/07/2011 at 1:46 PM

    Dan 2:33: “its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.” (NASB)

    His legs h8243 שק shaq (Aramaic)

    of iron, h6523 פרזל parzel (Aramaic)

    his feet h7271 רגל rĕgal (Aramaic)

    part h4481 מן min (Aramaic)

    of iron h6523 פרזל parzel (Aramaic)

    and part h4481 מן min (Aramaic)

    of clay. h2635 חסף chacaph (Aramaic)

    AHF gets to the heart of it, I think. If the “iron” is the Roman Empire, then it could be divided into eastern and western, i.e., Constantinople and Rome. And I think it could be this, and STILL be Islamic nations coming against Israel at the end. Interpreting it this way does not necessitate the “Revived Roman Empire/EU” view.

    Or, it could be Sunnis and Shias if the Roman Empire was never in view.

    I’ve been reading a verse by verse commentary of Daniel (I’m only up to the mid 2nd Chapter) and one point that is made that I think is fairly interesting and germane to this discussion is that the statue of the man is just that–a statue of a SINGLE man, even though 4 kingdoms are discussed. They proceed from precious (gold at the head) to worthless (clay feet). So we are talking about kingdoms of men with one “spirit” behind it; there is a thread of human rebellion and pride running through all of these kingdoms.

    The stone strikes the feet and whole statue collapses. It blows away like chaff in the wind. The commentary makes the point that grain was threshed on high places so that the chaff would be taken away in a breeze. Originally the temple mount in Jerusalem was a threshing floor. Of course the stone is Christ, and I think this is all an allusion to the defeat that the beast will suffer in its last iteration on the temple mount at Christ’s return.

    Willard, a great online bible website is biblegateway.com if you’re ever without at bible.

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  27. Willard
    05/07/2011 at 3:25 PM

    Thanks for the tip on biblegateway – I see the image as follows – it does represent the kingdoms that would come into world history Babylon, Persia, Greece – than the iron of feet and clay – the iron legs are not identified with a specfic number they simply continue out of the thighs – #4 does not arrive until we get to the feet of clay and iron mixed together and as you said Kurt the word mixed means Arab according to strongs ?? so there must be Arab in these feet – the question may be is it the iron or is it the clay or is it a mixture of the two – I would suggest the it is the mixture of the two.

    When the rock destroys this image completly it destroys the entire image or ALL of the foregoing kingdoms – also I see the number 666 right at the top of the head of gold – meaning that this entire image is a combination of all of the kingdoms Babylon, (Iraq) Persia (Iran) Greece (todays ME) being revived together in the last days under the umbrella of ten nations – uniting out of the choas we see today in the lands of these ancient empires – we have this image in chpter 2 – than we have Nebuchadnezzar’s image and we are told the the A/C will also have an image

    my problem with Rome being recognized as a kingdom within the iron legs being East and West is that there is no number attached to it – we go from #3 to #4
    and the 4 is the feet of iron and clay with the ten toes which must be the same as the ten horns etc – the Septugint adds to the kingom 2 Persia and it included the word hands – hands also have ten fingers it doe not say fingers only hand – again the hands are connected though with Persia so maybe the toes and hands both having the ten – the bear with three ribs in his mouth – Iran being Nuclear and a big problem today around the world plus Persia is also mentioned in Eze 38 and 39 ???

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  28. Willard
    05/07/2011 at 4:31 PM

    Another question that we need to ask ourselves is if the ROCK which smashes the feet and destroys all of the kingdoms in the image to dust they must be around in the world in some revived form or fashion – how can you destroy something that has been dead for several thousand years – it can only be destroyed if it is in existance in some form ???

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  29. AtHisFeet
    05/07/2011 at 6:25 PM

    I have a hard time just dismissing or skipping over Rome. I think we are going to have difficulty sharing the Islamic beast teaching with those who have always been taught the “revived Roman Empire” point of view if we propose that Rome is nowhere to be found in the vision of Daniel 2. It was a huge empire, and is indicated by John in Revelation as one of the seven heads (the one that “now is”).

    Perhaps we have a couple of choices here. We can blend Rome in with Greece, after all many scholars speak of the “Greco-Roman” empire – their cultures were closely related. Or, Rome is symbolized by the legs (calves?) of iron which then flowed into or became mingled with the feet of clay, as I said above in that Rome (Byzantium, anyway) was eventually absorbed into the Ottoman empire.

    I have in the past pondered the idea that the ten toes represented a union of both European and middle eastern countries – the iron mixed with clay. Turkey has a foot in both worlds. In the end, I feel that the beast will consist of mostly Islamic countries, perhaps with the little horn uprooting most of the European nations. I don’t know – more thinking out loud.

    I think there is no question that all of these empires have been inspired by the same spirit (the dragon) to go out conquering and to conquer, especially the desire to conquer Jerusalem and destroy believers. That is the common thread that runs through them all – although some rulers (like Darius or Cyrus) were more beneficent than others. I believe it is Satan’s obsession to be worshipped as God on the temple mount.

    Any thoughts on the horns of the lamb?

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  30. ICA
    05/07/2011 at 7:04 PM

    Joel Richardson briefly discusses Dan 2 in the video below starting at about 3:08 –

    I’ve also just posted an article discussing Daniel 9:26, another passage that many point to in support of a ‘Revived Roman Empire’.

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  31. Willard
    05/07/2011 at 7:25 PM

    AtHisFeet

    We also have to deal with the False Prophet maybe this where he somehow fits in

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  32. AtHisFeet
    05/07/2011 at 7:51 PM

    I don’t by any means hold to the revived Roman empire theory anymore. I am thoroughly convinced that the endtime beast will be Islamic. It just doesn’t set well with me to totally gloss over Rome in the flow of empires symbolized in Daniel 2.

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  33. AtHisFeet
    05/07/2011 at 7:53 PM

    Willard – hence my initial query – what about those two horns symbolizing two individuals? Is this something anyone has ever considered?

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  34. Kurt J.
    05/07/2011 at 9:34 PM

    AtHisFeet :
    I don’t by any means hold to the revived Roman empire theory anymore. I am thoroughly convinced that the endtime beast will be Islamic. It just doesn’t set well with me to totally gloss over Rome in the flow of empires symbolized in Daniel 2.

    That’s how I feel too. Too many solid bible interpreters see the iron as Rome; that Empire was significant in that region for hundreds, almost 1000 years. It was the “now is” head of the beast’s seven, as you stated.

    Still hoping someone will address my 5 clear questions above. One of them has to do with the differentiating the fourth kingdom of Ch 2 and fourth beast of Ch 7.

    As Willard stated, the iron/clay feet HAS to be extant in the End for Christ to crush it and the entire statue to be destroyed. It seems to me to be most representative of a single “spirit” (i.e., Satan) that has animated these various human kingdom manifestations–it is a single statue, after all.

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  35. Willard
    05/07/2011 at 10:32 PM

    I will be home tommorow Kurt and will look at those question and pass along my thoughts – another thought is that we are told that the Assyrian will invade Israel – all of these lands in the man of metal are based in the lands of ancient Assyria – also the Septugint in Judith call and refers to King Nebu as King of Assyria – I am also thinking about the two horns as well- AHF

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  36. ICA
    05/07/2011 at 11:09 PM

    I really haven’t had much time to jump in the discussion today, so I’ll quote a post made by Joel Richardson in 2009 and point to an article by Rodrigo Silva that relates to the discussion.

    Joel Richardson: “In recent months, the term ‘Eastern-Leg’ has emerged as a popular the title of choice to describe the position that holds that the Antichrist and his Empire would come from the Middle East. While there are a few teachers whose positions could appropriately be described as ‘Eastern-Leg’, I myself would not fall into this category at all. Let me explain: I do not believe that Rome is the fourth Beast / Empire of the Book of Daniel at all. I believe that the primary subject matter of the Book of Daniel is the Islamic Empire. For this reason, I refer to my theory as either the Middle Eastern or the Islamic End Time Theory (or Paradigm). I do believe that the Roman Empire is considered among the empires listed in Revelation 17, (five have been, one is) but not in the Book of Daniel. Remember, the primary thrust of the entire book of Daniel is the final evil world empire; its geography, nature, characteristics and its leader. When you look at Daniel 12, the angel tells Daniel that he is to seal up the book (of Daniel) until the end of time. If this verse means anything at all, if the book indeed has been sealed, then it also bears to reason that the most common position down throughout the history of the Church, namely that Daniel is focusing on the Roman Empire, is also the least likely to be the primary subject matter of the book. If anything, this verse points us to a contrarian position. So while many throughout history have seen elements of the Islamic Empire in the Book of Daniel, it seems as though suddenly there is a tremendous amount of clarity that is being delivered to numerous people on this matter. The book certainly appears to be in the process of being unsealed. The primary thrust of the Book of Daniel (in my opinion) is the Islamic Empire, not the Roman. So I very much appreciate the clarity that Rodrigo has brought to bear on this issue.” Source.

    Download Rodrigo Silva’s article “Do The Legs of Iron Represent the East-West Division of Rome?” here.

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  37. Willard
    05/08/2011 at 11:38 AM

    Regards the the horns on this lamb – I think as others have suggested it is the way the A/C will present himself as a fake Christ – (Christ the Lamb of God) he the A/C will play the part of the lamb preaching peace etc. But it shouls be understood that this lamb with the two horns is also a young RAM and when he gets stronger into the dragon stage he will than become a two horned Ram just like Persia is depicted in Daniel – Remember what Daniel said about this two horned Ram that was defeated by Greece – he said that one horn was longer and that IT GREW UP LATER which I think could be understood as the last or end days

    Another thing connecting things to Persia / Iran is the book of Esther which does not speak about God but it does point pout the A/C through Hanan and his ten sons – there were thre decrees made againget the Jews – 1) Daniel and the Lions den 2) Haman against the Jews 3) the covenant (1 week) left over from the 70 x 7s prophecy in Dan 9:27

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  38. Kurt J.
    05/08/2011 at 12:33 PM

    I do like Silva’s analysis, thanks ICA.

    Reading my Daniel commentary (Young, Westminster Seminary, Phila, PA, 1949) last night (I’m up to 2:41), he points out the major supporters of the various interpretations of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Kingdoms; most, including early church fathers, support the typical Bab, Med-Pers, Greek & Roman Empires as the four, although there are some outliers. Interestingly, the Jewish commentator Ibn Ezra from the 11th/12th Century Spain (under Moorish Islamic rule at the time) said the 4th Kingdom was Islam!

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  39. 05/08/2011 at 7:33 PM

    Kurt – Reply to your questions

    These are my thoughts and the understanding that I have but I also still am questioning – Chapter two I believe was and took place beginning in Daniels day. Chapter seven I see as a reinforcement of Chapter two but with more info explaining more especially about Persia and Greece. But I also think it is pointing to the last days where we have seen these same kingdoms. Reason for this are

    This vision was in Belshazzar’s first year of reign which was after Nebuchadnezzar was dead. Belshazzar was the king which seen the writing on the wall and the end of the Babylonian kingdom. The writing on the wall took place in the last year of his reign 539 BC and is recorded in Chapter six but Daniels vision in his first year of reign took place in Chapter seven – it seems that these two chapters should be reversed.

    In this vision of the four beasts each one was different and coming out of the sea. The first was like a lion. We know that Babylon was the lion, and at this point of the vision time Babylon was only a few years from its end. So my question is and thoughts are that this must be a future revived kingdom of Babylon because its wings were torn off and it stood on its feet like a man and a heart of a man was given to it. Which would seem to indicate a reduced kingdom from it glorious reign of power of its ancient days or of it’s former self. I have already sent you the links for the Coat of Arms for Iraq.

    The Roman kingdom I am firmly convinced that it should be understood as Greco-Rome. The iron legs do not have a number so they cannot be a kingdom unto itself. It may be the east and west but under Greek influence, but personally I am leaning quite strongly toward Sunni / Shiite and the reason for this is as I already mentioned the word mixed is associated with the word Arab in the feet and toes of clay that will not bond together.

    Shiite is the Islamic sect in Iran or Persia plus the Iranians are Aryans and they do not like the Arabs one little bit which is historical and presently seen in their disagreement over the naming of the Arabian Sea or the Persian Gulf. In the Table of nations Gen 10:22 tells us that the Elamites originate out of Shem the same family as that the Jews come out of. The Arabs which are mainly Sunni’s come out of the family of Ham and the Ishmael, and the Cushite. Being two different families two different sects, historical never getting along I this fits the clay and iron which will not bond. I think we have to focus on the nations that historically were enemies of Israel

    Regards the iron legs and Rome I think Dan 8:23 when it is speaking of the reign of Alexander’s four generals which ruled the land that was once ruled by Babylon, and Persia clearly appears to be saying that Greece will still be around in the last days when it says THE LATER PART OF THEIR REIGN. Maybe in the form of government that they invented called democracy. Greece is around until they the rebels (Muslims) have become completely wicked and a stern face king arises which must be the A/C.

    Da 8:23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise

    I also agree that 7:10 and 11 take place at the end of the days just as Rev 19:20 also which supports these kingdoms once again being in the end days and a problem for Israel.

    Even Daniel was troubled with understanding this vision. One other thing worth pointing out I think about chapter seven also possibly being future is 7:17 says that the four great beasts are four kingdoms that will arise our of the earth, than in the very next verse 18 we are told that the saints of the most high will receive the KINGDOM – kingdom as one as singular or that these four great beasts are four kingdoms are yet to come and yet also one ??

    Da 7:17 ‘The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.
    Da 7:18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever

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  40. Willard
    05/08/2011 at 7:46 PM

    Some interesting info regards Rome and Islam where Rome was defeated in Syria

    Saracen Conquest Of Syria
    Author: Ockley, Simon

    http://history-world.org/Saracen%20Conquest%20of%20Syria.htm

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