Home > Anything Else > Palestinians Hail International ‘Birth Certificate’ of Statehood

Palestinians Hail International ‘Birth Certificate’ of Statehood


“Donor countries meeting in Brussels recognized on Wednesday that the ‘Palestinian Authority (PA) is above the threshold of a functioning state’ – an assessment immediately hailed as a ‘birth certificate’ for a Palestinian state by PA premier Salam Fayyad.

In recent months, the World Bank, the United Nations and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) have certified that Fayyad’s state-building plans are on track for completion in mid-2011.

‘We can today conclude that the Palestinian Authority is above the threshold of a functioning state,’ Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store said after chairing a meeting of the Ad Hoc Liason Committee, a panel of donor countries to the Palestinians.”  Read more.

  1. AtHisFeet
    04/15/2011 at 6:51 PM

    Ever noticed that all of the flags of the nations that surround Israel have the colors white, red, black and green or some combination thereof? Can’t help but think about the 4 horsemen of Rev. 6. Just a thought…

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  2. Kurt J.
    04/16/2011 at 9:14 PM

    Very astute observation!

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  3. ICA
    04/16/2011 at 10:14 PM

    I hadn’t noticed that before, interesting. What I did notice, however, was the association that the green horse has with Islam:

    Revelation 6:7-8, “When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, ‘Come!’ And I looked, and there was a pale green horse. The horseman on it was named Death, and Hades was following after him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill by the sword, by famine, by plague, and by the wild animals of the earth.”

    I believe that the final horse — the “chloros” (green) horse of Revelation — refers to Islam:

    1. Has power over 1/4th of the earth and is followed by death and hell. Muslims make up 25% of the world’s population.

    2. The horseman was named death. Radical Islamists will consistently proclaim that they love death more than we love life. In fact, the only way to guarantee Paradise is to die for the sake of Allah in jihad.

    3. Green is considered a sacred color in Islam.

    4. The rider of the fourth and final horse is said to kill by wild beasts or animals. The Greek word for “wild beasts” is thērion, which also is used metaphorically to refer to “a brutal, bestial man, savage, ferocious.” Just look at how the Islamic world reacts today at even the mere rumor of someone blaspheming Islam or their prophet, Mohammed, or upon hearing that their beloved Qur’an was desecrated.

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  4. AtHisFeet
    04/17/2011 at 4:03 PM

    You and I must have been in the same “classroom” of the Holy Spirit at some point. When I realized that the greek word was “chloros”, I came to the same conclusions. In fact, chloros doesn’t even mean “pale” green, but green as in the color of grass. It is also used in Rev. 8:7 for the green grass. This is the color of Islam. Just look at Saudi Arabia’s flag.

    I am amazed at the presumption of translators who changed the word to “pale” simply because, to them, a green horse didn’t make sense. Did they not fear God in changing His word?

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    • ICA
      04/21/2011 at 12:28 AM

      I agree, and very few English translations even include the word ‘green’ in this verse.

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  5. 04/17/2011 at 6:16 PM

    AtHisFeet – Excellent observation and very good points you pointed out – ICA certainly is doing a great thing with this site – looking at these 7 seals and the four horses in the first four seals it almost appears that they may reflect the progression of Islam –

    I am not sure the following would be accurate but something I noticed the other day Dan 12:9 tells us that his words would be sealed until the end and than v 11 and 12 tells us that from the time that the AoD was set up (Dome of the Rock) it would be 1290 days and those reaching 1335 days would be blessed.

    If and I only suggest if these days were biblical years than we have from the completion of the Dome of the Rock 695/696 plus 1290 biblical years brings us to 1967 and 1335 brings us to 2011 when much changes has come to the ME – just thinking out loud

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  6. Kurt J.
    04/17/2011 at 6:43 PM

    Willard, 696 + 1290 = 1986, not 1967.

    Are you talking about “prophetic years”? If so, then 1290 x 360 = 464400/365.25 = 1271.46 years, so 696 +1271.46 = 1967.46, OK.

    1335 x 360 = 480600/365.25 = 1315.81, so 696 +1315.81 = 2011.81

    If you are correct, could “How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days (years)!” be interpreted to mean, after the 1335 years you will see the glory of God by making it to (rather than through) the tribulation? I am one who cannot be convinced that there is a remaining 7 year trib, but I could be persuaded that there might be a 3-1/2 year period of special trouble. I don’t think we’ve entered that, if it exists, yet.

    I am thinking of the calculation we did of a 3-1/2 year period, beginning around Palm Sunday of 2012, that concludes with Christ returning on Rosh Hoshanah in 2015 for His ekklesia and judgment on YK 2015, perhaps bowl judgments falling between the two (apologies to ICA).

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  7. ICA
    04/17/2011 at 6:56 PM

    To continue with the ‘thinking out loud’ nature here, the time following the 1335th [prophetic year] could then be referring to the period of time when “Many will be purified, made spotless and refined” that was just mentioned in the previous verse (Dan 12:10) — logically this would be the ekklēsia of God — and the time after which Messiah would then “present her to Himself a glorious church (ekklēsia), not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish” (Eph 5:27). This time of purification and refining could be that which takes place during the 42-month persecution of the Beast (cf Rev 13:5), which matches exactly the time, times, and half a time that Daniel referenced in 12:7.

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  8. AtHisFeet
    04/17/2011 at 7:57 PM

    I have often pondered whether the “purging, purifying and refining” of Dan. 12:10 might be referring to the 42 month period of tribulation. Also seems to be inferred in Dan. 11:35. I don’t see the Bride being made spotless without the refining fire of tribulation – especially the western church.

    Came across a website once in which they held that the AoD was the Dome of the Rock. They calculated that the 1260 days spoken of in Daniel started in 688 with the completion of the DotR and ended at 1948. There was so much to read, though, that I bogged down after while. I think it was beholdthebeast.com

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    • ICA
      04/21/2011 at 12:33 AM

      And Daniel 7:25 as well: “And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

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  9. 04/17/2011 at 8:47 PM

    I think that I am leaning to the 3.5 years as well – 7 years of tribulation seems to be out – but than there are many questions left hanging 1) the 70 x 7 theory leaves the last seven only half fulfilled, 2) than we have the seven years of burning the implements of war for seven years from Ezek. 3) The two wintness that will be raised from the dead and REv does referer to them as Men ??? But if there is not a third temple built than the DoR could be the Abomonation that makes desolate – if we look at Christs words he referes to it as THE abomonation it does not sound as though he is refering to a person but rather as an object (THE)

    Mt 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand

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  10. ICA
    04/17/2011 at 9:57 PM

    Hi Willard, here are my thoughts on the points you made in your previous post:

    1. There are three views regarding the 70th week: A. Already fulfilled, B. Partially fulfilled, and C. Not yet fulfilled.

    The view that it has not yet been fulfilled is not only the newest but also the weakest, in my opinion. Historically, this traditional dispensational view is actually a recent invention and was never taught prior to the 19th century.

    Although the first view — that it has already been fulfilled — is the most prevalent view throughout church history, I lean more towards the second view that it is partially fulfilled, but am open to the first view as well to some degree. I believe that Christ already fulfilled at least the first half of Daniel’s 70th week. The Messiah is mentioned more times in Daniel 9:25-26 than anyone else and it seems to be Daniel’s primary focus:

    Dan 9:27a, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease…”

    Now compare Dan 9:27a with the following:

    Gal 3:17, “And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.”

    Heb 8:6-8, “… he [Christ] is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

    Heb 10:1-10, “For the law … can never with these same sacrifices … make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered?… For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come — In the volume of the book it is written of Me — To do Your will, O God.'” … then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].”

    Although the 70 weeks of Daniel can be consecutive from beginning to end, there is the definite possibility in my mind that there is a pause in the middle of the 70th week. We even find an example of a pause in time essentially from a comma. In Luke 4:16-21 when Jesus went into the synagogue and read the prophecy of Isaiah 6:1-3 to proclaim its fulfillment, He stopped mid-way in the prophecy. This is what He fulfilled:

    Isaiah 61:1-3, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD [{– Fulfilled | –} Not yet fulfilled], and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.”

    Interestingly, Jesus felt the need to mention something a few verses later in Luke 4:25, “But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land.” Could this have been a clue to something? Only God knows. But with respect to the 70th week of Daniel, however, if only the first half was fulfilled then the other half is yet to come — the 1260 days / 42 months / time, times and the dividing of time (3.5 prophetic years of Antichrist).

    2. Burning the weapons of war for 7 years according to Ezekiel 39:9 is the exact same type of thing that happens per Isaiah 2:4 and is done after Christ’s Second Coming. After Armageddon a considerable clean-up will need to be done. Isaiah 2:4 tells us that Christ will have the nations destroying all of their weapons after He returns:

    Isaiah 2:4, “And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

    This verse is not just referring to only literal swords and spears. It is also referring to all weapons of war. This will include guns, bullets, missiles, aircraft, tanks, personnel carriers, battleships, grenades, bombs, etc. etc. which will need to be dismantled and melted down in order to be converted into something else. This will take considerable time to complete, perhaps years into the Millennial Kingdom. Likewise, the same will be done with the weapons of those nations that came up against Israel for Armageddon.

    3. The English translation says “the” but it’s not necessarily a part of the Greek text. Still, the word “the” abomination does not need to be referring to an object only that is placed inside a third temple. It could also be referring to an action done by one person (or group).

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  11. AtHisFeet
    04/18/2011 at 1:48 PM

    I am totally open to the premise that there may only be a 3 1/2 year period, instead of 7. I am often reminded of Jesus’ words that He would come at a time we do not expect. Everyone has been counting on this 7 years scenario for decades now. Not only that, but in some popular circles it is taught that there will be 7 years of utter calamity before the Second Coming. That always bothered me. Do you really think people would be “marrying and giving in marriage, eating and drinking (i.e. celebrating), planting and harvesting” if comets were hitting the earth and locusts with faces like men were biting everyone? It is amazing to me how much of a backstory has been created from ONE verse in Daniel.

    I also have read Ezekiel 39:9 as playing out as we enter the millennium, since I believe Ezekiel 38-39 refers to Armageddon, not some precursor war.

    Interesting point on Luke 4:25 – worth meditating on. Oh, the depth and riches of God’s word!

    I always kind of figured that the AoD was the act of antichrist standing in the holy place, declaring equality with God, i.e. 1 Thess.2:4. Right?

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  12. AtHisFeet
    04/18/2011 at 1:58 PM

    P.S. ICA – I would be interested in your take on the two witnesses per Willard’s comments:

    Actually Moses & Elijah, a la Matt. 17:3?
    Two men who come in the spirit of Moses & Elijah – like John the Baptist did?
    Symbolic representation of the Jewish and Gentile church, as the churches are referred to as lampstands in Rev. 1?

    These have been the options I have pondered. Have you written anything on this? I did a search of this site, but couldn’t come up with anything.

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  13. ICA
    04/18/2011 at 3:42 PM

    There’s not enough in the text in my opinion to conclude Moses and Elijah. But Revelation 11:4 calls the two witnesses the two olive trees and two lampstands/candlesticks. I therefore lean instead towards the view that it is likely symbolic of the ekklesia — Jewish believers and grafted in Gentiles. Consider the following video for instance:

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  14. AtHisFeet
    04/18/2011 at 4:53 PM

    I lean that way myself. Thanks for your thoughts and the video. I’ll be sharing this one. :)

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  15. 04/18/2011 at 5:18 PM

    ICA – I knew about this that Christ said but it was your reference to Is 61:1-3 that made a connection and brought my memory back to it and it has once again strengthened my thoughts and my argument that the 70 x 7s prophecy is a dual or maybe even a tri fulfillment of this greatest prophecy in the bible as to the life DECREED FOR THE JEWSIH PEOPLE and accurate time line we could expect Christ to return. Just like his first coming the signs were accurate but were not seen until the hind site factor

    The normal and typical understanding, and #2 as the 70 Feasts of Weeks (years) from the UN 181 decree on Aug 29 – 1947 and #3 70 Jubilees from entering the land of Canaan as I have posted earlier. Again I know that this date for entering the land is debatable and we cannot prove this date but it does fit the approx time frame almost exactly as understood by most scholars.

    In this Isaiah that you quoted Jesus is clearly speaking about a Jubilee year. It reads just like Lev 25 beginning a v8 and what the Jews were instructed to do during the Jubilee year.

    Isaiah 61:1-3, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD [{– Fulfilled |

    Lev 25:10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each one of you is to return to his family property and each to his own clan.

    The reference you made in 4:25 very well could fit the part of Isaiah left unread by Christ ?? 4:25, “But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and

    –} Not yet fulfilled], and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified

    There is additional information that fits I think with the status on the last seven – and maybe adds to this that we maybe should be watching for. Kurt and myself have discussed this on Joels Trumpet several months ago and that is the alignment of the sun and the moon with the Eastern or Golden Gate with the HoH. I believe that the HoH is under the Dome of Tablets not Dome of the Rock because being an old farmer I know that you need flat ground to thresh grain with a threshing sled and that was the reason David bought the threshing floor. Under the DoR there is exactly that a big rock impossible to thresh over. If I recall I think Kurt also agrees with this point.

    On the eve of Rosh Hashanah Sept 13 – also the eve of Tishrei the 1which is the last day of Elul (month of return) we have a second solar eclipse the first one being Nissan 1 same year. Also on this day we have both the alignment of the Sun and the Moon with the HoH as mentioned above and the Eastern Gate in true East knowing that the HoH and the Golden Gate are not sitting exactly due East. The line also aligns with the ancient city of Susa if that adds or not I am not sure? These degrees are not a normal occurrence as far as I can conclude on Rosh Hashanah.

    Sun rise Sept 13th 2015 @6:48 am set at 6:48 pm – 85 degrees
    Moon rise Sept 13th 2015 @ 6:20am set at 6:53 pm – 86 degrees
    Ten days later we have Yom Kippur. 1967 was a Jubilee year and from June 6 1967 to Yom Kippur 2015 is exactly the end of 49 biblical years and the next day the beginning of the 50th year or one Jubilee of time from the Yom Kippur war. The web site Mark of the beast.com suggests that 2015 is the Jubilee year. They understand that a Jubilee is 49 years. Just pointing these things out as they appear to be interesting.

    Than this is all wrapped up like book ends with another Lunar Eclipse on Sept 28th on the eve of the FoT with the second Lunar eclipse of the year 4 total counting 2 lunar and 2 solar eclipses.

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  16. ICA
    04/18/2011 at 10:23 PM

    Yes, a lot does seem to point to the Fall Feasts of 2015. Since we’re on the topic of possibilities and what could happen soon, as you may already know there was at least one teacher who suggested the possibility that Christ could set His feet upon the Mount of Olives on Yom Kippur in 2015. This is Mark Biltz. I will admit — and I have stated this over on Joel’s forum — that I do find Biltz’s research and the implications of what he has discovered to be very intriguing, and am in agreement with him insofar as the Second Coming of Christ at least fulfilling the Fall Feasts of the Lord. (For anyone interested, feel free to review his findings by watching all of the following video here, which is vital to understanding the angle from which I or others are approaching this subject).

    Though Biltz, at least at the time of his video’s recording, seemed to believe in a seven-year tribulation — evident in one of his comments near the end of his video — I have embraced the fact that the Bible only speaks of a period of 3.5 years in the eschaton during which time the eschatonic Beast persecutes the saints of God, as stated above. So IF Biltz is really on to something regarding the solar/lunar eclipses and the timing of the upcoming tetrads and how they may be related to the cosmic signs that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:29, then the implications are massive. I will concede, however, that this is a big IF, though he does lay out a rather convincing case in his video.

    Having said that, let me throw this thought out there just as something else for others to chew on. Now I’m not saying that what I am about to write is correct, only that it is something to think about in light of Biltz’s research and other items that seem to point to the Fall of 2015.

    First, let’s remind ourselves of something specific regarding these cosmic signs according to Jesus:

    Matthew 24:29 that, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”.

    If the cosmic signs that Biltz has laid out are the cosmic signs that Jesus refers to, they will need to only take place immediately after the tribulation according to the words of Christ, which just so happens to fall in line with the historical fact that Israel was generally at war — or fighting for her existence — just prior to the first sign of each tetrad in 1948-49 and 1967-68. From the perspective of 3.5 years of ‘Great Tribulation’, and taking into consideration Biltz’s research, perhaps the following could be argued:

    A. The Great Tribulation would have to end on or just before the day of the first lunar eclipse of 2014: April 15, 2014 (Passover). If that is the case, then from this perspective the Great Tribulation of 1260 days (42 months or a time, times and half a time) would have needed to begin no later than November 2, 2010. This time has come and gone, and although there is chaos in the Middle East right now like we’ve never seen before and Christian persecution has ramped up considerably in the Islamic world to the point where many are calling what is happening ‘Christian genocide’ (see here, here, here and here for example), the Great Tribulation would, I believe, need to effect national Israel in addition to spiritual Israel (Messianic Jews and grafted in Gentile believers), which leads me to the second possibility …

    B. If we need to refer to the first lunar eclipse that only happens during the same Jewish calendar year (5775), then the Great Tribulation would have to end on or just before the day of the first lunar eclipse of 2015: April 4, 2015 (Passover). If that is the case, then from this perspective the Great Tribulation of 1260 days (42 months or a time, times and half a time) would need to begin no later than October 22, 2011. Will anything significant be happening this fall? Let’s keep watching …

    Again, I’m not saying this is correct, but just something to chew on. (There is also a third possibility that I need to think about a bit more). At any rate, I think it would be wise to keep a watchful eye on developments this fall (and even during the spring of 2012) for the Abomination of Desolation, what ever that may be. With developments happening at a furious pace with Turkey/Syria/Iran and so many other nations surrounding Israel, we could be much closer to the actual Second Coming of Christ than many Christians today even realize. Therefore, let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch …

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  17. Kurt J.
    04/19/2011 at 10:41 AM

    Just re-read Isa 24 this morning–read thru it a couple of times slowly. Isa 25 too. Isa 24 is very much what we’re starting to see.

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  18. 04/19/2011 at 12:10 PM

    The information about the eclipses I also got from Blitz and like yourself find it very intriging – but I also find the additional info connected with this day of Rosh Hashanah equaly interesting – but it is all a wait and see –

    Kurt – Is 24 and 25 certainly does get ones attention – what a day that will be –

    ICA – question why is Passover one week before our Easter this year ??

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  19. 04/19/2011 at 12:29 PM

    ICA – I do understand your argument about the 2 witnesses and after watching the video and rereading Rev numerous times I still lean to these as being actual men – BUT there are questions no doubt with this as well – how could fire come out of their mouths and destroy their enimies is one – but than how could the church and Israel lay in the streets for 3.5 days and than come to life ?? Than in 11:12 if this is the church and Israel as you indicate it almost sounds as though we will be raptured ??? because the church and Israel will than be removed from the earth just before the end of the second woe??

    Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
    Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on

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  20. ICA
    04/19/2011 at 1:13 PM

    Personally I don’t envision the fire coming out of their mouths in any literal sense but rather something more akin to military orders to attack the Beast and kill those responsible for terrorist attacks against them as they cry out for protection and justice. As they are being destroyed through acts of war, so too will the Beast suffer the ramifications of its actions.

    Rev 11:5, “And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.”

    Consider, that when Christ returns and a sharp sword comes out of His mouth this is not literal, but rather symbolic of His Divine judgment.

    Rev 19:15, “Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations…”

    ‘Believing Israel and grafted in Gentiles’ laying in the streets for 3.5 days could essentially be, for all intents and purposes, a virtual genocide of the ekklesia throughout the Islamic world. Their testimony is preached, and the Beast has them destroyed throughout the land because of the testimony of Jesus and their refusal to submit to Islam. But as the people of the Beast celebrate the ‘ordained destruction’ of Jews & Christians and, emboldened, they devise plans to conceivably expand their campaign of forced conversion and elimination outside of Islamic lands, the seventh and last trumpet will sound. As soon as the last trump begins to sound they will witness the completion of the mystery of God — the resurrection and gathering of God’s elect. As the gathering takes place unto Christ an angel preaches the everlasting Gospel to the earth, a world that has just witnessed the most momentous event in the history of humanity, and gives them one final chance.

    Zep 2:2-3, “Gather before judgment begins, before your time to repent is blown away like chaff. Act now, before the fierce fury of the LORD falls and the terrible day of the LORD’s anger begins. Seek the LORD, all who are humble, and follow his commands. Seek to do what is right and to live humbly. Perhaps even yet the LORD will protect you–protect you from his anger on that day of destruction.”

    But those who have received the Mark of the Beast instead continue to believe the lie, and will soon be struck with terror by the coming ‘orge’ wrath of God (Rev 6:12-17), and it is they who will suffer the fierceness of His wrath in full measure …

    I could be wrong of course in this regard, and there are still some things that I’m not sure of in terms of sequencing or timing (ie, the five months of Rev 9:5), but the overall picture here — if the two witnesses are in fact a reference to the ekklesia — is one of virtual decimation but Divine intervention (Matthew 24:22).

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  21. AtHisFeet
    04/19/2011 at 1:43 PM

    I also was blown away by what Biltz discovered. In fact, doesn’t it seem like the Lord has been revealing so much in the last couple of years, through many different servants? I was so glad to see Joel on Glenn Beck putting the Islamic antichrist message out there to such a huge audience. It seems to me like the Lord is calling to His people to wake up louder than ever these days, before the REAL shaking starts.

    But, here’s a question: If we go with B – GT ending on or around Passover 2015 – then that leaves a 5 month+ gap between the gathering of the elect and Yom Kippur (Sept. 23, 2015). If the fall feasts will be fulfilled by the events of the Second Coming, then I have always assumed that Yom Kippur would be when Jesus actually “touches down” so to speak (trumpets might already be happening). Any thoughts on that?

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  22. ICA
    04/19/2011 at 2:05 PM

    Yes, we have just over 5 months in that scenario. I’m wondering if the first two of three woes against the Beast and his kingdom take place during this time because the first woe is found in Revelation 9:5,12 where we read, “And they [the locusts from the smoke of the bottomless pit] were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man … One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.” We then read about the gathering of the elect in Revelation 10-11, and the second woe is the massive earthquake in Rev 11:13-14. I see the third woe as the final destruction at Armageddon and the surrounding nations, the ‘orge’ wrath of God.

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  23. Kurt J.
    04/19/2011 at 3:30 PM

    ‘Believing Israel and grafted in Gentiles’ laying in the streets for 3.5 days could essentially be, for all intents and purposes, a virtual genocide of the ekklesia throughout the Islamic world.

    If the 3.5 days were actually years, then that would correspond with the 3.5 year trib.

    Zep 2:2-3, “Gather before judgment begins, before your time to repent is blown away like chaff. Act now, before the fierce fury of the LORD falls and the terrible day of the LORD’s anger begins. Seek the LORD, all who are humble, and follow his commands. Seek to do what is right and to live humbly. Perhaps even yet the LORD will protect you–protect you from his anger on that day of destruction.”

    This reminds me of the ‘Days of Awe’ between Rosh Hoshanah and Yom Kippur. Perhaps the Ekklesia are actually off the Earth for these 10 days, and this is the time to decide, before the Day of the Lord/Yom Kippur/Orge Wrath?

    The ‘five months’ are during the Fifth Trumpet, when the smoke from the bottomless pit arises, per my “historicist” (currently, anyway!) beliefs. I place this at the beginning of Islam, with the “army from the east” being Islam as it marches to the west, taking Constantinople, etc. The 5 months are in years: 30 days x 5 = 150 days, or 150 years, the march of Islam around the Arab world and beyond.

    So to me, we are at the cusp of the 7th Trumpet. And if I’m right about this, and the belief about Islam being the Beast is correct also, then perhaps this makes some sense in that Rev is focusing like a laser beam on progress of this system and ignores other major historical developments.

    Maybe you need to return to your original view of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls–that they coincide. The Fourth Seal (chloros horse) leading into the 5th Trumpet…

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  24. AtHisFeet
    04/19/2011 at 4:53 PM

    The 5 month period in Rev. 9 also came to my mind. It also seems to fit with the idea that this is the final opportunity for men to repent before the third woe/bowl judgments, as is inferred in 9:20.

    If I may add my thoughts on the seals, trumpets and bowls: Many years ago it occurred to me that these were like three circles – one within the other – with the Day of the Lord being the “bullseye” if you will. All of the three lead to the same outcome, being evidenced by the fact that the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl all speak of the same event, i.e. great earthquake, hail, fire, stars falling, etc.

    The outer circle would be the seals, encompassing all of the time between the first and second coming. They seem to correspond quite neatly with Matt. 24:4-14. These are the events which are going to increase in frequency and intensity as the Day of the Lord draws nearer. As a mother who has given birth to six children, I can tell you that the final stage of labor – transition – is the worst part. Accordingly, the worst deception, the worst famines, the worst earthquakes, the worst wars, persecutions, etc. will be those that are occurring just prior to Christ’s return. Islam certainly fits the bills for having fulfilled much of this.

    The inner circle is the trumpets and corresponds to the Great Tribulation – a zeroing in on that particular period.

    And, finally, the “bullseye”, corresponding to the bowls, is the Day of the Lord.

    This idea can also be supported by Matt. 24 in that we can break it up into these three elements as well: Seals – Matt. 24:4-14; Trumpets 15-28 and Bowls 29-31.

    With this scenario there is certainly some overlap of seals to trumpets and trumpets to bowls. Both the historicist and futurist might find something with which to agree here (although not down to every last detail, I am sure).

    I know there are probably flaws with this theory, I certainly haven’t figured out all the details, but it might be food for thought.

    Like

  25. ICA
    04/20/2011 at 1:37 PM

    Kurt J. :

    If the 3.5 days were actually years, then that would correspond with the 3.5 year trib.

    It would, yes. If the reign of the eschatonic Beast were described as 1260 days in Revelation, however, then for consistency we would have also needed to interpret it as 1260 years. Fortunately, John did not describe it this way and instead, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said it would be 42 months (Rev 13:5), even though it would also be precisely 1260 days (42 months x 30). The 42 months coincides with the time, times and half a time of Daniel 7:25 and 12:7.

    Kurt J. :

    This reminds me of the ‘Days of Awe’ between Rosh Hoshanah and Yom Kippur. Perhaps the Ekklesia are actually off the Earth for these 10 days, and this is the time to decide, before the Day of the Lord/Yom Kippur/Orge Wrath?

    Perhaps, but I view our escort of Christ’s return to earth as immediate once we meet Him in the air per the ‘apantesis’ of 1 Thess 4:17, for “in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two … Thus the LORD my God will come, [And] all the saints with You” (Zech 14:4-5). We go to Jerusalem, and it is there that we stay and are protected by Yeshua from His wrath against the surrounding nations on the Day of the Lord. The Lord will descend from Heaven with a shout (1 Thess 4:16, Rev 10), but “The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel” (Joel 3:16).

    Kurt J. :

    The ‘five months’ are during the Fifth Trumpet, when the smoke from the bottomless pit arises, per my “historicist” (currently, anyway!) beliefs. I place this at the beginning of Islam, with the “army from the east” being Islam as it marches to the west, taking Constantinople, etc. The 5 months are in years: 30 days x 5 = 150 days, or 150 years, the march of Islam around the Arab world and beyond.

    Well, my issue is that Islam has been on the march for over 1300 years. If it said 150 days we could have a better argument in that regard I think.

    Kurt J. :

    So to me, we are at the cusp of the 7th Trumpet. And if I’m right about this, and the belief about Islam being the Beast is correct also, then perhaps this makes some sense in that Rev is focusing like a laser beam on progress of this system and ignores other major historical developments.

    Maybe you need to return to your original view of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls–that they coincide. The Fourth Seal (chloros horse) leading into the 5th Trumpet…

    I believe that the trumpets will begin some time during the 5th seal and continue through to the opening of the 7th seal. As far as where we are right now, if I were to venture a guess I think that we may be somewhere in between the 4th and 5th seals (I see the seals as an overall view of tribulation from beginning to end and immediately after, beginning with the time of the Apostles and extending throughout history). Moreover, it seems to me that the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial all end right around the same time in the eschaton, so instead of being consecutive they are more concurrent. My view hasn’t changed in that regard.

    Like

  26. ICA
    04/20/2011 at 1:52 PM

    AtHisFeet :

    If I may add my thoughts on the seals, trumpets and bowls: Many years ago it occurred to me that these were like three circles – one within the other – with the Day of the Lord being the “bullseye” if you will. All of the three lead to the same outcome, being evidenced by the fact that the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl all speak of the same event, i.e. great earthquake, hail, fire, stars falling, etc.

    Yes, I see it that way as well. This is a view that is also supported by Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, which is considered by many to be the standard conservative-evangelical work, published around 1871. In their Commentary they state, “Thus, it appears, the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials, are not consecutive, but parallel, and ending in the same consummation. They present the unfolding of God’s plans for bringing about the grand end under three different aspects, mutually complementing each other.”

    Like

  27. Kurt J.
    04/20/2011 at 3:52 PM

    ICA,

    I have previously successfully used underlining (i.e., …) and italics, but I failed to put your words in quotes above (I used …). Is there somewhere that gives this wordpress blog’s html instructions?

    So then, 3.5 days of the two witnesses’ dead bodies lying in the street means what?

    I don’t think your interpretation that the two witnesses’ fire coming from the mouth being the west’s weapons is consistent either, or maybe I didn’t understand it. So we have the two witnesses (TW) representing the OT and NT churches and/or the OT or NT themselves, which I agree with, but now they also represent western nations in their attack on Islam/the Beast? That doesn’t seem right. While I understand Islam often equates the west with Christianity, that is certainly not the case. You will have to explain that one to me.

    Do you see that somehow the West/the Ekklesia are defeated the last 3.5 days before Jesus returns?

    And the TW/Ekklesia have the powers that Moses did in Exodus? (v6).

    Obviously this is figurative/symbolic language, not pictoral of missiles and weapons. Please take a shot at interpreting Ch 11 verse-by-verse.

    Thanks,
    Kurt

    Like

  28. 04/20/2011 at 4:19 PM

    AtHisFeet – I found your point very interesting about the flags matching the colors of the four horses as it added to what I thought connected to the flag of China and did a bit of digging on it. Some of the Islamic flags pointed out by AtHisFeet
    http://www.flags-flags-flags.org.uk/united-arab-emirates-flag.htm UAE Flag
    http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/meaning_of_flag.htm Palestinian Flag
    http://www.worldflags101.com/e/egypt-flag.aspx Egypt
    http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/arabcol.html Pan Arab Flag
    http://www.world-free-printable-flags.com/kuwait-flag-meaning-symbolism.html Kuwait Flag
    http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/sy.html Syria
    http://daytranslations.com/lebanese_flag.aspx Lebanon
    http://www.flags-flags-flags.org.uk/iraqi-flag.htm Iraq
    http://www.flags-flags-flags.org.uk/iran-flag.htm Iran
    http://www.flags-flags-flags.org.uk/afghanistan-flag.htm Afghanistan
    http://www.appliedlanguage.com/flags_of_the_world/flag_of_saudi_arabia.shtml Saudi Arabia protector of Islam – the Pale Green Horse ??

    AtHisFeet – your comments of the colors of the flags of Islam I think have opened up a lot of certainty about ID-ing Islam in connection with the four horses of Rev. What better way to transfer a message through history than with color. About 2 years ago I wrote a book as a witness for kids, family and friends and after a business trip to China I noticed that the flag of China also connected with the 200,000,000 man army that would kill one third of mankind and also with the colors of scarlet, yellow, and purple or blue. Following are comments that I made at the time in my book.
    http://www.flags.net/CHIN.htm Flag of China
    Angels are sometimes referred to as stars in the bible.
    Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lamp stands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches….
    The above verse Ref 1:20 refers to stars representing angels. So the question is, are the four small stars on the flag of China the four angels that where kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year that were released in Rev 9:14 and is the large star possibly the sixth angel who had the sixth trumpet, or is this simply just a coincidence? This flag and modern day China did come in existence within a year of Israel becoming a nation and as we know Israel is the hinge pin.
    Whether this is what John meant only God knows for sure all I am saying is that it seems to fit the picture that John is giving us. There seems to be a possible connection with the four stars on the flag of China and this verse in Revelation nine with the four stars that were bound and released at the Euphrates.

    Rev 9:14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” Rev 9:15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.
    China’s Flag was adopted September 1949 one year after Israel became a nation which in itself is interesting.
    Rev 9: 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released

    The four fallen angels kept ready could possibly be represented as the four smaller stars on Chinas flag. I will not put words into Gods mouth but this does seem to fit the picture in this verse.
    Rev 9: 17-19 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.
    What a description for modern day warfare, out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur, regards the horses I think John would not have known any other name for fighting machines of our day other than in words of his own day which would have been war horses. Tails like snakes could possibly be a 2000 year old description with 2000 year old words would have been impossible to describe the use of guns on turrets mounted on tanks or describing helicopter gunships, how would one describe explosives in modern day warfare in 2000 year old language other than fire, smoke and sulfur.
    The colors of Chinas Navel flag are fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. Is it not amazing how John records the exact same colors as are found in the Naval Flag of China. This naval flag is associated with the Chinese military. But we will have to wait and see. When this prophecy is fulfilled, than we can than say that it has come to pass, but again it does seems to precisely fit. I traveled to China in 2009 and these colors are everywhere especially the red and the yellow or gold.
    The Chinese race is often refereed to as the yellow race or by some the yellow peril, also the land of the rising sun. Their colors have always included red, wedding dresses are red; the Chinese army also is refereed to as the Red Army (communism). Also dark blue is the color of the working class or peasant dress ware.
    John was describing in words of his day what he seen in the future and trying to relay the message forward 2000 years. As AtHisfeet has said and pointed out Colors would be an easy picture to transmit through history.

    Like

    • ICA
      04/21/2011 at 11:59 AM

      Interesting isn’t it, how every single Arab nations’ flag has only those colors.

      Flags of the Arab World

      Daniel 2:41, “And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.”

      The word for ‘mixed’ in Dan 2:41 is the Aramaic word ‘arab’, which means “mixed” or “joined”.

      Like

  29. ICA
    04/20/2011 at 11:56 PM

    Kurt J. :

    ICA,

    I have previously successfully used underlining (i.e., …) and italics, but I failed to put your words in quotes above (I used …). Is there somewhere that gives this wordpress blog’s html instructions?

    I couldn’t find anywhere that gave instructions on how to use html formatting for wordpress comments. For the quoting I’m having to do it manually (copy and pasting the bracketed blockquote.) I insert any links and text formatting only after my initial post since I don’t have a way to do it easily during a reply and am able to edit it afterward. I don’t think there is a way to allow this for others at the moment.

    Kurt J.

    So then, 3.5 days of the two witnesses’ dead bodies lying in the street means what?

    Well, let’s think about the symbolism that bodies lying in the street could entail. If the 3.5 days refers to years and should in fact be equated with the 42 months of Rev 11:2 and 13:5, then it could simply be John’s way of referring to the campaign of an eschatonic Beast that is not only given the ability to exercise authority and make war for 42 months (13:5), but a campaign specifically “to make war with the saints and to overcome them” (13:7). Rev 11:7 says that when the two witnesses “finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.” In my mind it stands to reason that this would need to be referring to the virtual obliteration of any and all Judeo-Christian presence and influence from within the Beast’s kingdom, “the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt” (11:8). The people of the Beast’s kingdom would rejoice at the prospect and expected elimination of the ekklesia from Muslim lands right up until the very end. Their ‘Islamic prophecies’ even declare that Jews and Christians will be destroyed by Muslims before ‘Judgment Day’. It makes sense to me that they who worship the Beast would be more than happy to oblige …

    Kurt J.

    I don’t think your interpretation that the two witnesses’ fire coming from the mouth being the west’s weapons is consistent either, or maybe I didn’t understand it. So we have the two witnesses (TW) representing the OT and NT churches and/or the OT or NT themselves, which I agree with, but now they also represent western nations in their attack on Islam/the Beast? That doesn’t seem right. While I understand Islam often equates the west with Christianity, that is certainly not the case. You will have to explain that one to me.

    The West doesn’t equal Christianity, that’s true. But let’s consider the history of Muslim conquests and the campaigns of terror that have taken place throughout history against the “Judeo-Christian West” since the 8th century, and all wars/Crusades that followed as a result. If the two witnesses are said to prophecy (perhaps this means that they proclaim and declare the kingdom of Christ from the Word of God) for 1260 days, could this be referring to the past 1260 prophetic years of conflict that the West has had with the Islamic world? After all, Islam attacked “the West” then, as they do today, because “the West” is where they have found the greatest Judeo-Christian presence in the world throughout history. If the Islamic armies attacked them, “the West” attacked back. If the Islamic armies killed them, they were in turn killed by “the West”. This is something that I am not dogmatic with of course either way, but I think it’s something to think about. Remember, much of this is still in the vein of ‘thinking out loud’ and ‘possibilities’.

    http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/MuslimConquestHistory.htm

    Kurt J.

    Do you see that somehow the West/the Ekklesia are defeated the last 3.5 days before Jesus returns?

    Within the Islamic world, I see it as being all but destroyed (it is getting closer to this point every day). The West will suffer greatly, to what extent I can only guess, but alas, the ekklesia is not completely destroyed because according to the words of Christ those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt 24:22), and after the resurrection of those who have died in Christ (Rev 20:4-5) we who are alive and remain (perileipomai, those of us who survive this time) will be caught up with them …

    Kurt J.

    And the TW/Ekklesia have the powers that Moses did in Exodus? (v6).

    Obviously this is figurative/symbolic language, not pictoral of missiles and weapons. Please take a shot at interpreting Ch 11 verse-by-verse.

    Thanks,
    Kurt

    Perhaps some day I’ll have to. :) But let me ask you this — how do you interpret the fire that comes out of the mouths of the lion-like horses heads in Rev 9:17-19? Maybe we’ll be one step closer to understanding the fire out of the mouths of the two witnesses once we can figure that one out …

    Like

  30. Kurt J
    04/21/2011 at 1:43 AM

    ICA: If the 3.5 days refers to years and should in fact be equated with the 42 months of Rev 11:2 and 13:5…

    You realize you just disagreed with me yesterday that this could be 3.5 years…

    ICA: If the two witnesses are said to prophecy (perhaps this means that they proclaim and declare the kingdom of Christ from the Word of God) for 1260 days, could this be referring to the past 1260 prophetic years of conflict that the West has had with the Islamic world?…

    But, but, BUT…you said this was stated specifically “1260 days/42 months/time, times, half a time” to show this was an actual 3.5 year period! Its historicists that believe the day-year principle, not “futurists”! I’m not (only) making fun, I’m confused–are you literally changing your mind on this? What happens then to the 3.5 year “great” trib? Or are you saying that God intended this means both, much as it is believed by many that both Antiochus E. and the AC are in view in the early verses of Dan 11?

    ICA: Remember, much of this is still in the vein of ‘thinking out loud’ and ‘possibilities’

    Yes, I can see that…wow, I thought at least you were getting closer to some interpretational certainties, even as I wavered. I was thinking about jumping back on the AC bandwagon, but now that you’re revisiting 1260 days/years, I think I’ll hold off! Get out the popcorn.

    ICA: But let me ask you this — how do you interpret the fire that comes out of the mouths of the lion-like horses heads in Rev 9:17-19?

    One historicist said that this referred to the first ever use of cannons by the Islamic army assaulting Constantinople in the 13th (?) Century–the cannons they used were cast in the shape of a lion’s head; the “horses” are both literal and figurative of the strength of their weaponry, and the “power in their tails” described the location that the cannon’s fuse was lit. But this interpretation, IMO, begs the question, “is this really a symbolic interpretation?” I don’t think so.

    Most of the rest of your response above I agree with–yes, the defeat of the witnesses need only be in the lands of the “beast” (whether Islamic or Papal!) and yes, “the West” in the view of Islam is synonymous with Christianity.

    Earlier in the dialogue:

    ICA: I view our escort of Christ’s return to earth as immediate once we meet Him in the air per the ‘apantesis’ of 1 Thess 4:17,

    I do too; it seems like it has to be immediate, but Mike Bickle (IHOP) sees a 30 day period of Jesus proceeding all around the world collecting the saints (“every eye will see Him”–he believes every person on earth with see Jesus with their own eyes) before going into Egypt (even Walid mentioned this in his interview with Sid Roth), setting captives free in Edom, and descending on Jerusalem. Bickle gets the 30 days from the difference between the 1260 and 1290 in Daniel. I’m not sure what to do with those numbers, but I like the correspondence of Jesus “arriving” on FOT (“the Last Trump”) and judgment happening on Yom Kippur. If an abbreviated version of Bickles procession occurred between the two…

    ICA: Well, my issue is that Islam has been on the march for over 1300 years. If it said 150 days we could have a better argument in that regard I think.’

    I’ve read that most of the current Islamic world was conquered in the first 150 years after Mohammad. But yes, Islam has been expanding all along.

    OK, I’m going to “Post Comment”–I’m sure I’ll find several grammatical and punctuation errors I wish I could fix, but oh well!

    Like

  31. Kurt J
    04/21/2011 at 1:54 AM

    AtHisFeet,

    I’ve really enjoyed your insights in your few posts so far, and look forward to many more. I just wanted to say I was surprised to find that you are female (yeah, I know, stereotypes), and even more so that you have had 6 children! Wow! My wife and I have 3 kids; can’t imagine 6.

    Willard, ICA and I go back several years to the Joels Trumpet Discussion Board; I really enjoy jawing with these guys. Anyway, hope you keep posting.

    Kurt

    Like

  32. ICA
    04/21/2011 at 11:32 AM

    Kurt J :

    You realize you just disagreed with me yesterday that this could be 3.5 years…

    Well, saying it’s possible isn’t disagreeing. It’s actually a very sensible position. :)

    Kurt J :

    But, but, BUT…you said this was stated specifically “1260 days/42 months/time, times, half a time” to show this was an actual 3.5 year period! Its historicists that believe the day-year principle, not “futurists”! I’m not (only) making fun, I’m confused–are you literally changing your mind on this? What happens then to the 3.5 year “great” trib? Or are you saying that God intended this means both, much as it is believed by many that both Antiochus E. and the AC are in view in the early verses of Dan 11?

    It is definitely, in my view, 3.5 years of great tribulation. The 1260 days (42 months x 30) could in fact be a layered prophecy, a dual fulfillment, one which is condensed within the trumpets/vials to be understood as 42 months, and the other which is expanded within the seals to be understood as days of years. The fact that John describes the reign of the eschatonic Beast as 42 months, which coincides with Daniel’s description of a time, times and half a time, suggests to me that this is in fact 3.5 prophetic years. But the fact that the testimony of the two witnesses is described as 1260 days and not 42 months could be inferring days of years. There was a time when I would have dismissed this for both Revelation and Daniel because it wasn’t spelled out specifically, but upon further consideration, if there is precedent in Scripture for this interpretation (such as Num 14:33-34, Ezek 4:4-6) then it could be true for either one, and if it could be true for either one then it could be true for both. Prophecy can be multifaceted or layered, and have more than merely one fulfillment.

    Kurt J :

    ICA: Remember, much of this is still in the vein of ‘thinking out loud’ and ‘possibilities’

    Yes, I can see that…wow, I thought at least you were getting closer to some interpretational certainties, even as I wavered. I was thinking about jumping back on the AC bandwagon, but now that you’re revisiting 1260 days/years, I think I’ll hold off! Get out the popcorn.

    There are interpretational certainties, and then there are interpretational possibilities. I am certain that there is a last-days Antichrist (which I like to call the eschatonic Antichrist/Beast). But the question I have been asking myself lately is — is Scripture pointing to one single individual in the Last Days, or to one single system? Is the “man of lawlessness” of 2 Thess 2:3 the direct antithesis to the “one new man” of Eph 2:15? Could it be both? I am keeping this in mind and watching intently, because if something is possible, it should not be outright dismissed imho. We just need to take a position that we are convinced of in our own minds, and if we gain new insight or understanding down the road be willing to accommodate the possibility into our thinking.

    Only hindsight is 20/20, and there are some things that we cannot be 100% certain of until we can look back and peer throughout the corridor of history and ourselves see the end from the beginning.

    Kurt J :

    ICA: But let me ask you this — how do you interpret the fire that comes out of the mouths of the lion-like horses heads in Rev 9:17-19?

    One historicist said that this referred to the first ever use of cannons by the Islamic army assaulting Constantinople in the 13th (?) Century–the cannons they used were cast in the shape of a lion’s head; the “horses” are both literal and figurative of the strength of their weaponry, and the “power in their tails” described the location that the cannon’s fuse was lit. But this interpretation, IMO, begs the question, “is this really a symbolic interpretation?” I don’t think so.

    It’s … possible.

    Kurt J :

    ICA: I view our escort of Christ’s return to earth as immediate once we meet Him in the air per the ‘apantesis’ of 1 Thess 4:17,

    I do too; it seems like it has to be immediate, but Mike Bickle (IHOP) sees a 30 day period of Jesus proceeding all around the world collecting the saints (“every eye will see Him”–he believes every person on earth with see Jesus with their own eyes) before going into Egypt (even Walid mentioned this in his interview with Sid Roth), setting captives free in Edom, and descending on Jerusalem. Bickle gets the 30 days from the difference between the 1260 and 1290 in Daniel. I’m not sure what to do with those numbers, but I like the correspondence of Jesus “arriving” on FOT (“the Last Trump”) and judgment happening on Yom Kippur. If an abbreviated version of Bickles procession occurred between the two…

    Maybe, I would have to review their reasoning in this regard. But I do see us as being gathered to Christ upon His return and going to Jerusalem right away …

    Like

  33. AtHisFeet
    04/21/2011 at 2:19 PM

    Kurt J. – Thanks! I really appreciate hearing that. Believe me, I know I’m a “fish out of water”. It’s been over 25 years now since I was bitten with the eschatology bug. Tried to lay it down several times through the years, as it was not easy to find time with all of the babies and toddlers, but I could never totally get this stuff out of my head. Now that my kids are older, I have more time. The Lord has definitely blessed me with some insight into prophecy as I have been faithful to study over the years. He chooses whom He will, that’s for sure! Try bringing up the topic of Daniel 8 as it corresponds to the 4 generals of Alexander the Great and the final emergence of an Islamic antichrist at the ladies’ tea – goes over like a lead balloon.

    I’ve actually been lurking on Joel’s forum for a long time and gained so much from all of your insights. When I found this blog, I decided to take a deep breath and jump in. I guess you all must know what a great blessing it is to find others who are as consumed with these matters as you are. So, thanks for letting me join in, guys. :)

    Back to flags – what I found really interesting is the origin of the word “ensign”, which is defined by Webster’s as: 1) a badge, symbol or token of ofice or authority, 2) a flag or banner; specif. a national flag, as one displayed on a ship. “Ensign” comes from the Latin “insignia”, which comes from the Latin “signum”, which means mark or sign.

    I know Walid has made the point that the mark could actually be the banners that Muslims wear on their foreheads and hands. Seems really logical in light of the above. But, what about the possibility of the raising of either the flag of the Palestinian “state” or the caliphate on the Temple Mount as a “sign”? As far as I can tell, there is no flag on the mount at this time designating it Israeli, Jordanian or otherwise.

    Like

  34. AtHisFeet
    04/21/2011 at 2:26 PM

    ICA – I read your commentary on Rev. 13. Really good stuff. I have wondered about something that maybe you can shed some light on. In 13:15 it speaks of breath being given to the image (gr. eikoni, meaning in vain or without purpose) so that the image (gr. eikon, likeness, statue) would speak and that those who did not worship the image (back to eikoni) would be killed.

    Interesting that two different forms of the word with different meaning should be used in this verse. Has anyone else ever noticed this?

    Maybe I ought to finally register on Joel’s Forum and take this over there!

    Like

    • ICA
      04/21/2011 at 3:44 PM

      The way that I see it is as follows: The Beast is the Islamic Empire. The image (“eikōn”) of this Islamic Empire is the “Muslim Community” (Ummah). The “breath” or “life” that the Muslim Community is given is the Greek word “pneuma”, which refers to the spirit that governs them in all that they do. It is their “life source” as it were, their inspiration. And what would that be? The Qur’an.

      The “second Beast” gives life to the Muslim Community (image of the first Beast) by empowering them to do what the Qur’an says –> kill anyone who does not submit to Islam / the Muslim Community / the prophet Mohammed / the Qur’an. The image of the Beast (Ummah) both speaks (the Qur’an) and causes as many that would not submit to this image to be killed. Here are a few examples of what the Qur’an says:

      Surah 2:191, “Kill disbelievers wherever you find them… If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.”

      Surah 2:216 “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”

      Surah 2:244 “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah heareth and knoweth all things.”

      Surah 3:151, “We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve…”

      Surah 4:89, “Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.”

      Surah 4:91, “If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.”

      Surah 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.”

      Surah 8:15-16: “O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers preparing for battle do not turn your backs to them. [Anyone who does] shall incur the wrath of Allah, and Hell shall be his home,- an evil dwelling (indeed)!”

      Surah 9:123 “O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness…”

      Surah 10:45, “On the last day Allah will kill all the disbelievers (and then he will torture them forever in hell).”

      This is but a small example of the words that give life to the image of the Beast.

      http://undhimmi.com/2011/04/21/21-year-old-executed-for-converting-from-islam-to-christianity/

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  35. AtHisFeet
    04/21/2011 at 2:41 PM

    Willard – I have thought exactly the same thing – John was doing his best to describe 21st century warfare with 1st century knowledge. I agree that China must be a large part of othat 200 million man army from the east. Interesting point about the stars.

    I figure if we keep hashing this stuff out, then when things finally begin to unfold we will have at least considered all of the possibilities and we’ll know which ones “stick” when we see them happen.

    Like

    • AtHisFeet
      04/21/2011 at 8:15 PM

      “I don’t have any real insight on this, maybe ICA or others do. I know the NT is written in Greek, so I’m not sure the “significance” (related word, possibly) of that Latin word.” (Still figuring out the quote thing, too)

      That’s true – guess that was kind of a dumb little rabbit trail! I loaned out my copy of “God’s War Against Terror”, so I’m wracking my brain trying to remember how Walid made that connection.

      Like

  36. Kurt J.
    04/21/2011 at 3:14 PM

    AtHisFeet :Now that my kids are older, I have more time. The Lord has definitely blessed me with some insight into prophecy as I have been faithful to study over the years.

    Yes, I agree.

    AtHisFeet :Try bringing up the topic of Daniel 8 as it corresponds to the 4 generals of Alexander the Great and the final emergence of an Islamic antichrist at the ladies’ tea – goes over like a lead balloon.

    Hah, that’s funny. It’s the same for me if I try that at Hang Gliding Club meeting, or even Bible Study! About the only place to talk “end times” is at The Prayer House.

    AtHisFeet :I’ve actually been lurking on Joel’s forum for a long time and gained so much from all of your insights. When I found this blog, I decided to take a deep breath and jump in.

    Oh, that’s cool. Glad you joined in the conversation.

    AtHisFeet :Back to flags – what I found really interesting is the origin of the word “ensign”, which is defined by Webster’s as: 1) a badge, symbol or token of ofice or authority, 2) a flag or banner; specif. a national flag, as one displayed on a ship. “Ensign” comes from the Latin “insignia”, which comes from the Latin “signum”, which means mark or sign.

    I don’t have any real insight on this, maybe ICA or others do. I know the NT is written in Greek, so I’m not sure the “significance” (related word, possibly) of that Latin word.

    So I tried the “blockquote”…here goes…

    Like

  37. 04/21/2011 at 3:21 PM

    AtHisFeet

    We do this because we love his first above all – but also as a witness to our families and friends, neighbors – I have many in my family including children and grandchildren who like you say about the ladies tea they simply cannot see the light – that is why I wrote them a book to pass on the faith – but we keep praying and hoping and I believe firmly that if we leave the seed behind God will water it

    I can remember when I too was young not putting God first in all things and my father used to tell me RIGHT IN FRONT OF ALL MY FRIENDS can you imagine of all things embarassing me to no end “Willard do not forget your baptism or your church” my Dad knew teach a child when he is young and when he is old he will know the way to go – and sure enough in 1973 during the Yom Kippur War when I was in the ME he opened my eyes when in a used book bin in Dubai there was this dog eared book which I bought which brought back many into the fold and opened up all of the Sunday school lessons at least for me called “The Late Great Planet Earth” – What a gracious and loving God we have

    Like

  38. AtHisFeet
    04/21/2011 at 3:35 PM

    Sounds like your dad was a good man. LGPE was one of the first books on prophecy I read as well. Although I have changed some of my views over the years, I will always appreciate Hal Lindsey for whetting my appetite for God’s Word.

    I couldn’t agree more. My primary motivation for studying these things so deeply is that I long with all of my heart to see Jesus return, to be with Him where He is forever and see every knee bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord.

    May it be soon!

    Like

  39. Kurt J.
    04/21/2011 at 3:38 PM

    ICA :
    Prophecy can be multifaceted or layered, and have more than merely one fulfillment.

    I’m not sure. I definitely agree that there are types and shadows, but it seems there is one fulfillment. For instance, Jesus is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world, but there were lambs slaughtered to cover sin in the OT, or Antiochus E. foreshadowing AC. Are there really dual, triple and multiple fulfillments? Help me with that.

    ICA :But the question I have been asking myself lately is — is Scripture pointing to one single individual in the Last Days, or to one single system?

    I vote for system…but I suppose when Islam moves against Israel, there will be a leader, even if its a coalition.

    ICA :
    Is the “man of lawlessness” of 2 Thess 2:3 the direct antithesis to the “one new man” of Eph 2:15?

    Again I vote “yes”…I think this should go under the interpretational probability heading.

    ICA :
    Only hindsight is 20/20, and there are some things that we cannot be 100% certain of until we can look back and peer throughout the corridor of history and ourselves see the end from the beginning.

    Definitely agree with that.

    I think we should try to dissect Rev 11 verse by verse, using the rest of the Bible as commentary and ignoring everything else written about it–a fresh look, if you will. Common sense is allowed too. And supernatural revelation.

    Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.”

    a measuring rod like a staff “a reed like a rod”…why would he use a rod/walking staff to measure the temple? Staffs are usually 4-5′ long…they support one on a journey, they are human-scaled, they are something handled… Umm, I’ve got nothing. Got to go back to work!

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