Home > Radical Islam, Theology and Eschatology > The Mark of the Beast – What Your Church May Not Be Telling You

The Mark of the Beast – What Your Church May Not Be Telling You


Revelation 13:16-17, “He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

A literal and physical mark, or something else?The most popular view today regarding the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 13 is that it is a literal mark physically placed in the forehead or right hand of those who worship Antichrist. Many teachers of Biblical eschatology will even refer to modern 21st century technology and point to some type of tattoo or implantable microchip under the skin when attempting to explain the mark.  But why?  What is in the text that leads many to believe that this mark must be physical when, after all, virtually every one of us would agree that while the book of Revelation speaks about the dragon, the Beast, the “Whore of Babylon” or the mark of Christ upon the elect etc. that these descriptions are not referring to a literal dragon, a literal animal, a literal prostitute or a literal seal of Christ? This is obviously figurative language pointing to something completely different.  On the other hand, so to speak, is there anything from Scripture to indicate for us that this mark need not be a physical mark at all, but could instead be something else entirely?

After careful consideration, I believe that the Mark of the Beast is very likely a spiritual mark just as the mark of Christ upon the elect is spiritual.  Since many will resist the suggestion that a figurative Beast will also have a figurative mark, despite the fact that there is nothing in the text stating that the Mark of the Beast must be physical, it is important to rightly divide the Word of God and study, from the whole of Scripture, the significance of the hand and head and how it often relates to man’s condition in the Biblical text.

Arguments Against a Figurative or Spiritual Mark

First, however, let’s begin with arguments that are often issued against a figurative or spiritual mark.  Some will contend that if John literally saw a mark in the forehead and hand of those who worshiped the Beast then it must therefore have been literal and physical. This, however, is a poor argument considering that John “saw” the seal of God upon the foreheads of the elect as well, yet everyone agrees this seal is spiritual in nature. Since we know that the seal of God is not literal, “seeing” the mark in the forehead of those who worshiped the Beast likewise does not mean that it must be a physical, literal mark.

Others may argue that because John used the word “charagma” (G5480) for “mark” which means “a stamp, an imprinted mark” that it must refer to a literal mark because it is physical by definition, but this — again — is another example of poor argumentation because John employs many other words throughout Revelation that refer to something physical by definition yet uses them figuratively as symbols of something else entirely. For example:

Revelation 13:17 – the beast – “therion” G2342 – an animal, a wild beast
Revelation 12:3 – Dragon – “drakon” G1404 – a dragon, a great serpent
Revelation 12:3 – horns – “keras” G2768 – a horn; of animals
Revelation 12:3 – crowns – “diadema” G1238 – a diadem; a kingly ornament, crown
Revelation 14:4 – Lamb – “arnion” G721 – a little lamb, a lamb

Art used by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.

Art used by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.

According to the “charagma = physical mark” argument, the Beast should be literal. The dragon should be literal. The ten horns on the head of the dragon, the crowns, the lamb, etc. etc etc. should all be literal because the words that John used refer to things that are physical by definition.  We would all agree, however, that these are figurative.  It does not stand to reason that the figurative dragon, with the seven figurative heads, ten figurative horns and a figurative crown upon each figurative horn — a figurative dragon who hates the figurative woman and who gives power to the figurative Beast that opposes the figurative lamb (a figurative lamb who figuratively marks those who follow the figurative lamb with a figurative seal) — puts a literal, physical mark upon those who worship the figurative Beast. The song “One Of These Things (Is Not Like The Other)” comes to mind, doesn’t it? It makes much more sense that the word “mark (charagma)” is used figuratively by John, just as “lamb (arnion)” and “crowns (diadema)” and “horns (keras)” and many others all refer to something physical and tangible that we can identify with. All are symbolic or spiritual, not literal and physical.

The Significance of the Head and Hand, and Being ‘Marked’ in Scripture

As for the significance of being ‘marked’ in the head or hand, let’s review a few portions of Scripture that refer to the head and hand and what these terms mean in those specific contexts.

Exodus 13:9 says, “And it shall serve AS A SIGN to you on your hand, and AS A REMINDER to you on your forehead, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the LORD brought you out of Egypt.”

The Lord said that His words are to be as a sign on our hand, and as frontals on our foreheads. The word “as” is “used to express similarity or equality in a specified characteristic, condition, etc., as between one person or thing and another.” It means “like” or “similar to.”

Sign: H226 Strong’s Bible Dictionary “ôth” – Probably from H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal, as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: – mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token.

Deuteronomy 6:5-8, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall bind them AS A SIGN ON YOUR HAND and they shall be AS FRONTALS ON YOUR FOREHEAD.”

Deuteronomy 11:18, “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them AS A SIGN ON YOUR HAND, and they shall be AS FRONTLETS BETWEEN YOUR EYES.”

James 4:8, “Come near to God and he will come near to you. WASH YOUR HANDS, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you DOUBLE-MINDED.”

Psalms 119:48, “My HANDS ALSO I WILL LIFT UP to Your commandments, Which I love, And I will MEDIATE ON YOUR STATUTES.”

Instead of interpreting Scripture to conform to our understanding, we must allow our understanding to conform to Scripture. When Scripture is permitted to interpret itself we’ll then begin to see why the Mark of the Beast need not be literal at all, but is instead simply an identifying mark upon the head or forehead to represent the mind, what you believe, your faith, how you think, and in the right hand to represent actions, works, what you do. There is nothing in the text necessitating a physical and visible mark upon the forehead or right hand as in a microchip or tattoo or anything else that a people or government can physically place therein or upon. It just doesn’t exist.

The Mark of the Beast – A Closer Look

Aside from those who worship the Beast, the only other figure in the book of Revelation directly related to the Beast and described as having a mark or name upon their forehead is one who many Bible scholars and prophecy teachers refer to as the “Whore of Babylon.”  This “woman” is described as being carried by the Beast (17:7), and all agree she is figurative and identified by the name upon her forehead. This alone should beg the question: If the name marked upon the forehead of this “woman” is figurative to designate identity, would this not then infer that the Mark of the Beast is itself also a figurative mark to designate identity, especially considering the fact that the mark of God upon the foreheads of the elect is itself also figurative to designate identity (Rev 7:3, Rev 9:4, Rev 14:1, Rev 22:3-4)?  Common sense would dictate that, yes, it would.

In Scripture, the seal of God upon the forehead of the elect refers to those who keep the commandments of God and who do not worship the Beast.  Conversely, those who have the Mark of the Beast would therefore be identified with those who worship the Beast and do not worship God. This would be the direct antithesis to the mark of Christ and symbolic of worship, of allegiance, of identity to permit all readers of Revelation to know to whom the individual or group belongs to and to whom their allegiance lies.  And for those with the Mark of the Beast, it is not with YHWH the God of Israel. Just as those who worship Christ receive the mark of Christ and are “sealed for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30), those who worship the Beast receive the Mark of the Beast and will “drink of the wine of the wrath of God” (Rev. 14:9-10) and suffer the same fate as the “Whore of Babylon”: destruction.

The Beast Carries the “Whore of Babylon” – Who Is She?

In chapter 5 of the book of Zechariah we read about a vision that Zechariah was given of a flying scroll and a “wicked woman”.  An angel tells Zechariah that “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land” at the appointed time (5:3,11). The Prophet Zechariah then writes that “the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, ‘Look up and see what this is that is appearing.’ I asked, ‘What is it?’ He replied, ‘It is a measuring basket.’ And he added, ‘This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land.’ Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman” (Zech 5:5-7).  Zechariah continues, “He said, ‘This is wickedness,’ and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed the lead cover down over its mouth. Then I looked up–and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth. ‘Where are they taking the basket?’ I asked the angel who was speaking to me. He replied, ‘To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When it is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.’” (Zech 5:8-11).

babylon-empire-map2Of particular interest here is the fact that this “curse” is described as a “woman” who would be set up in “Babylon” (Shin’ar). The Babylonian Empire encompassed areas of Saudi Arabia (the birthplace and spiritual homestead of Islam) to the south, to parts of Asia Minor (Turkey) in the north, and from Egypt in the west to Persia (Iran) in the east. This area is today the regional epicenter of Islam. Additionally, one intriguing aspect to the “curse” that goes out over the whole land is that the word for “curse”, and even how it is pronounced, is the Hebrew word “alah”. The Prophet Isaiah, in describing the condition of the earth at the time leading up to the Second Coming of Messiah, says that “the curse [alah] has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate” (Isa 24:6).  To dwell in the earth does not in and of itself make one “desolate”. But the same cannot be said for those who dwell in the “curse.”

There should be little doubt that the “woman” of Zechariah 5 that would have a house built for it in Babylon directly represents the “Whore of Babylon” referred to earlier. Over 600 years after Zechariah’s vision of the end times, John in Revelation 17 is given a vision of the future and of “the great harlot who sits on many waters … And on her forehead a name [was] written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” (17:1,5).  Given the fact that the “Whore of Babylon” directly represents the curse (alah), is being carried by the Beast, and is herself marked with a name upon her forehead, does it not stand to reason that the Mark of the Beast would therefore be associated with, or directly related to, the “woman” and “curse” (alah) prophesied by Zechariah and John?

Narrowing It Down and Zooming In

Moreover, let’s also consider the following. The Church of God — the assembly of His people — is called the “Ekklesia” in Scripture and in terms of location is identified with Jerusalem, Israel. This is the epicenter of the Judeo-Christian faith. If the “Bride” of the Lamb is identified as a city called “Jerusalem” (Rev. 21:9-10, “Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife… and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God”) then does it not stand to reason that the “Whore of Babylon” would also be associated with a city of its own? From the preponderance of the evidence that we are given throughout Scripture, the “whore” identified by John in Revelation is associated with the epicenter of Islam itself. And what would that be? The city of Mecca. Whereas the Judeo-Christian faith came out of Jerusalem, Islam came out of Mecca, the birthplace of “Allah’s religion” and the spiritual city of the “Ummah”.  She is the “whore of Babylon”. “Babylon” is the Islamic kingdom. The Islamic kingdom is the Beast. (And for what it’s worth, Mecca is known as a “city of seven hills” in the Muslim world).

Babylon: Spiritual Confusion and the Quagmire of Islam

The name Babylon written upon the forehead of this “woman” comes from the Hebrew word Babel, which means “confusion (by mixing)”. Since the region of ancient Babylon is today the epicenter of Islam and its god “Allah”, it is befitting to note a brief history of the founder and ‘prophet’ of Islam, Mohammed, and his self-proclaimed holy book, the Qur’an.

In an effort to entice Jewish and Christian converts to Islam, Islam’s ‘prophet’ incorporated a twisted mix of Jewish and Christian teachings with the existing Babylonian religion of Arabia early in his campaign to gain adherents to his “new” monotheistic Arab religion (formerly polytheistic), even going so far as to claim that “Allah” was the same god that Jews and Christians worshiped [1].  But Jews and Christians would not be deceived and, already familiar with the polytheistic religion of the Romans and their Greek gods, understood full well that just as abolishing all other Greek gods except Zeus would not suddenly make Zeus the God of Israel, neither would abolishing all Babylonian gods except for the moon god “Allah” suddenly make Mohammed’s god the God of Jews and Christians. This complete rejection of Mohammed and his teachings infuriated the ‘prophet’ of “Allah”, resulting in subsequent “revelations” for the Qur’an for the next 20 or so years that grew increasingly hateful and violent against Jews, Christians and all non-Muslims in general. This twisted mixing of Judeo-Christian teachings, Babylonian paganism and vengeful anti-Semitic and anti-Christian hatred is what permeates every crevice of Islam, even today.


Islam – Belief, Behavior, Bureaucracy, and Business

According to Islam, anyone who believes that Jesus was God in the flesh who died on the cross for the sins of mankind, a foundational tenet upon which Christianity is built, is accused of committing the worst of all possible sins called “shirk”. In Islam, this is an unpardonable sin that “Allah” will never forgive. In Christianity it is the key to everlasting life. But although Islam includes religious teachings as a vital, integral part of its core — Muslims must pray five times a day, and the only way for any Muslim to guarantee Paradise after death is to wage Jihad and be killed for the cause of “Allah” — it is not just simply a religious ideology that seeks to assert itself in place of Christ and all other religions. It is also a works-based system that completely encompasses legal, political, economic and even military components as well that seek to replace all other non-Islamic religions, values, laws, governments and economies until only Islam reigns supreme throughout the world [3]. Not only does Islam force its adherents to submit to “Allah” and his ‘prophet’ and demand that you reject any belief that Jesus is the Son of God and all other non-Islamic teachings, it also teaches that “Allah” weighs the good deeds and bad deeds of Muslims on a scale to determine who makes it into Paradise, and who does not.

In contrast, notice how we as Christians only receive a mark on our foreheads when we are sealed by God. Why not in our right hand as well? Unlike Islam, which is based upon works, Christians are saved by grace through faith, by being born again, by believing in the true Jesus of Biblical Scripture who died upon the cross, by being transformed by the renewal of our mind. We are not saved by works, lest any one should boast (Eph 2:9).

No One Can Buy or Sell Unless They Have the ‘Mark’

The biggest question that many will have regarding a symbolic mark is, “If the Mark of the Beast is only symbolic, how can those who do not have a literal mark not buy or sell?” This is often used as well by some as an argument against a figurative mark, arguing that any such mark must be visible and/or physical if it is required in order to buy or sell.  However, the answer to this question is much simpler than many may think.

When it comes to the conditions that exist in many Islamic nations for Christians, Dr. Labib Mikhail, a former professor of homiletics from the Faith Mission Bible College in Cairo, Egypt, states that one reason why people are forced to embrace Islam is because of the poverty they will assuredly find themselves in if they do not. “If you don’t embrace Islam you may not find a job; you may not find an apartment, and you’ll be in financial trouble” [4].  Non-Muslims, particularly Christians and Jews, living in Muslim-dominated countries are finding themselves subjected to an ever increasing wave of discrimination, oppression and persecution at the hands of the Ummah (Islamic Community).  Even today a Christian in a Muslim country is often treated as a second-class citizen or worse, unable to serve in the military or police, many cannot work or own a business, or even find a place to live. They cannot own a weapon to defend themselves, nor can they testify against a Muslim in court, etc. etc. etc. [5].  And this type of treatment is getting worse, not better. (Update: Read here to find out just how much worse this has become in 2011 alone).

According to NIFCON (Network for Inter Faith Concerns) in Iraq, for example, minorities have faced a tremendous crisis due to their religious identity and are increasingly becoming targets of unprecedented terror. Canon Andrew White, vicar of St. George’s Anglican Church in Bagdad and head of the Foundation for Reconciliation and Reconstruction in the Middle East, testified as a witness in 2007 at a hearing that Christians, in particular, “are being disproportionately targeted” and many Christians are being threatened either to convert to Islam or face execution [6].  In fact, in April 2011, “an Iraqi Muslim scholar issued a fatwa that, among other barbarities, asserts that ‘it is permissible to spill the blood of Iraqi Christians.’ … Among other atrocities, beheading and crucifying Christians are not irregular occurrences; messages saying ‘you Christian dogs, leave or die,’ are typical. Islamists see the church as an ‘obscene nest of pagans’ and threaten to ‘exterminate Iraqi Christians.'” [7].

Think about this very carefully. According to the Greek text of Revelation 13:17-18 it isn’t just someone who hasn’t received the “Mark of the Beast” on the right hand or forehead that cannot buy or sell. In order to buy or sell they must have the Mark of the Beast *or* the name of the Beast *or* the number of its name. In other words, those able to buy or sell are counted among the number of they who submit to the authority of the Beast empire or kingdom, not because they have been physically marked in the right hand or forehead for all to see, but because they are considered one of them ideologically or culturally or religiously in speech and practise. Consider these recent new stories, for instance:

And these are simply some of the incidents that we know about.

On one hand, while many are coming face to face with the threat of death for not converting to Islam, other Christians elsewhere are threatened to convert in other ways that, for some, make life extremely difficult.  In many Islamic nations, for instance, everyone must be given an ID card and this ID card specifies what religion you are, such as “M” for Muslim or “C” for Christian or “J” for Jew.  For example, “Christian converts and members of minority religions suffer daily discrimination in Egypt, which restricts their access to work, education, travel and healthcare… Every Egyptian over 16 years old must have an ID card which mentions religious belief”. In fact, “an ID card is required for the most basic needs in Egypt — to open a bank account, get a driver’s licence, obtain a pension cheque, enrol at school, get a job, and even for childhood immunisations…” Some Muslims will convert to another faith other than Christianity, but “Muslims who convert to Christianity account for many more and their treatment is often harsher as they are considered to be apostates, which some Muslims see as punishable by death” [8].  And now, since the fall of Hosni Mubarak and the rise of the ‘Egyptian Revolution,’ the situation has worsened dramatically for Jews and Christians.  This is where Islamic supremacy veiled in a cloak of ‘democracy’ will take you in a country where Islam is the overwhelming, dominant religion.  It’s like Sunni and Shia.  It’s like iron and clay.  Democracy and Islamism will never fully mix.

These sort of conditions exist for Jews and Christians all throughout North Africa, the Middle East and elsewhere where Islam dominates or seeks domination, from the Ivory Coast to Nigeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, TunisiaGaza, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Pakistan, Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia, The Maldives, Bangladesh and others.

When we begin to understand the dire social and economic conditions that Christians are increasingly facing in Islamic nations we then begin to understand that they who will not be able to buy or sell, or are targeted for execution, are those Christians that refuse to submit to Islam both in mind (forehead) and in deed (right hand) yet are forced to remain in Islamic nations during the rise of the Beast. How can a non-Muslim “infidel” — who is often threatened with death — buy or sell if they are not permitted to work and earn money, if they are not granted permits to open a business, if the superior Muslim will refuse to sell to the inferior “dhimmi”?  As bad as this situation is now, it is only going to get worse.

Chi-Xi-Stigma — In The Name of Allah?

Revelation 13:18, “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.”

Someone asked me once if I believed Walid Shoebat’s theory regarding Revelation 13:18 and “666”. Shoebat says that when he first saw the Greek symbols that are often translated as “666” he immediately recognized that the Greek text closely resembled the Arabic text for “Bismillah”, which translates to “In The Name Of Allah.” His theory is interesting and is something to consider.  At the very least, it is prudent to have an open mind to this position, especially given the likelihood that the Mark of the Beast is, in some way, directly related to Islam.   Mr. Shoebat and Chuck Missler speak about this possible aspect of chi-xi-stigma here in the following two videos, respectively:

Sunan Ibn Majah 2763, “The Messenger of Allah [Mohammed] said: ‘Whoever meets Allah with no mark on him (as a result of fighting) in His cause, he will meet Him with deficiency.”

Although I believe that the Mark of the Beast is primarily a spiritual designator, much like the mark of Christ that is upon the foreheads of the elect, that is not to say, however, that there cannot or will not at times also be a physical indicator that could identify the spiritual designation.  In addition to the “battle marks” received while waging Jihad or the “zebibah” (prayer mark) on the foreheads of many devout Muslims, Jihadists typically wear the “Bismallah” on the forehead and on the right arm, which itself is significant because the Greek word translated as “right hand” is dexios which not only means the right hand, but also the right side (the right hand side). In fact, even the Hebrew word “yad” means both hand and arm [7].

Exegetically and hermeneutically, the “number” (arithmos) of the beast does not necessitate the use of mathematics or gammatria to “reckon” (understand) what it is, something that many prophecy teachers often fall into. The word “arithmos” is used a total of 18 times in the NT, and aside from Rev 5:11 when John refers to the number of living beings he witnesses around the throne of God, every other time “arithmos” is used it is always referring to a group of people. This is significant because it therefore means that the Greek text is better understood as “the multitude of the beast: for it is the multitude of a man.” But what multitude of people would that be and what man are they all following? There is nothing in the text telling us that the man referred to here must be someone alive at that specific time or an end-of-days Antichrist. So what and who is John the Revelator referring to? Significantly, as noted above, “chi-xi-stigma” (often translated as “666”) closely resembles the Arabic Bismallah, which translates to “In The Name Of Allah”. In order to convert to “Allah’s” religion, however, one must recite the Islamic statement of faith, called the Shahada, by declaring that “There is no god but Allah, and MOHAMMED is his messenger.” Without Christ, there can be no Christianity. Likewise, without Mohammed, there can be no Islam.

Think about it.

One of the reasons why Muslims hate Christianity is because Christianity associates Jesus with God, making Jesus a co-equal partner with the Almighty. According to Islam, this is called “shirk” and is an unpardonable sin that “Allah” will never forgive. The truth of the matter, however, is that Islam itself also associates the “prophet” Mohammed — whom Muslims claim to be the most “perfect man” to ever walk the face of the earth — with “Allah” himself. On one hand, Islam teaches that “Allah” has no partners, but then contradicts itself by teaching that someone cannot become a Muslim unless they acknowledge that “There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger” per the Shahada. Unless one acknowledges Mohammed they cannot become a Muslim. In Islam, a Muslim’s “salvation” is therefore entirely determined by their obedience and devotion to Mohammed, effectively elevating the “prophet” of Islam to the same co-equal status of Islam’s own deity. To acknowledge “Allah” is not enough. You MUST acknowledge the “perfect man” Mohammed as well, and failure to do so means that they cannot be counted as part of the Ummah of Islam (Islamic community or nation).

The multitude of the Beast, which is the multitude of a man, are those who receive the “Mark of the Beast” upon their “foreheads” and are destined for destruction. This is the direct antithesis to the “great multitude” of Rev 7 and 14, which is the multitude of the Lamb that receives the seal of God upon their “foreheads” (Rev 7:3, 14:1) and are destined for redemption (cf Eph 4:30). One multitude is lost and separated from Christ forever (Rev 14:11), the other is saved and received unto Christ (Rev 7:15-17, 19:6-9, 22:2-5) to be with Him always. In light of what we have just learned, it therefore stands to reason that “the multitude of a man” is not referring to an eschatonic Antichrist, but rather to Mohammed — the founder and “prophet” of Islam — and those who follow him whose teachings even today continues to force all those under Islamic rule to worship “Allah” who should otherwise be killed if they refuse.

Revelation 13:15, “The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.”

Knowing that the mark of Christ includes a name upon the seal, it therefore makes sense that the Mark of the Beast could also have a name upon its seal as well. If it is plausible that what John saw was Arabic for “In The Name of Allah” for those who worship the Beast — the antithesis of those who worship God and are sealed with the name of Christ written on their foreheads — then in stark contrast those who worship the Beast and follow the religion of Mohammed could have the name of “Allah” upon theirs, and there would be no doubt about who belongs to who. Interestingly enough, the Qur’an itself at times emphasizes the significance of a Muslim’s forehead being marked during the worship of “Allah” — a mark that is required in order to be saved from hellfire per the Hadith — and how their works will be judged by what is in their right hand on the Day of Judgment:

Qur’an Sura 48:29, “Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers … The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration …”

Qur’an Sura 18:49, “And the Book (one’s Record) will be placed (in the right hand for a believer in the Oneness of Allah, and in the left hand for a disbeliever in the Oneness of Allah) …”

Qur’an Sura 69:19, “Then, as for him who is given his record in his right hand, he will say: Take, read my book!”

Qur’an Sura 57:12, “On that day [of judgement] you will see the faithful men and the faithful women [Muslims] — their light running before them and on their right hand …”

Needless to say, anyone standing before God with a “mark” on their foreheads other than the seal of Christ will face eternal damnation when the books recording what they had done are opened:

Revelation 20:12, 15, “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books … Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 14:11, “And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

To Whom Do You Belong?

Revelation 22:3-4, “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.” (See also Rev 14:1).

The Ekklesia is “Jerusalem” — the Bride of Christ — and is identified with the kingdom of God. The Ummah is “Mecca” — the “Whore of Babylon” — and is identified with the kingdom of the Beast. It is no secret that al-Qaeda and all like-minded Sunni and Shia terror organizations despise the “apostate” kingdom of Saud, not to mention Iran — a state-sponsor of terror — that is well on its way to obtaining nuclear weapons. These are they who “hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire” (Rev 17:16). The “Whore of Babylon” has spread radical Islamic ideology throughout the earth and the Beast that she has ridden throughout the centuries will soon turn on her to devour the hand that fed it.

New insights into Scripture and a review of developments being witnessed on a near daily basis in the Muslim world has lead a growing number of Christians to now recognize that Islam is the religious system of the Last Day’s Antichrist [be it a man or a system] and ideology of the Beast. It is the Adversary’s aim to corrupt and destroy anything that God has created, and this “curse” [alah] is his weapon of mass destruction.  There should be no doubt today that we are in the last of the Last Days and as we can see every day in the media, the Judeo-Christian West is being bombarded by the steadily encroaching tentacles of Sharia influence as Islamists take advantage of the West’s accommodating naivete and political correctness by using and abusing the very same democratic freedoms they seek to destroy.  While seeking the destruction of the West from within, it is getting increasingly dire for Jews and Christians in the Islamic world. The Beast of this Islamic Empire is coalescing. It is gaining in strength militarily. The Islamist ideology espoused by Al Qaeda and its ilk has metastasized since 9/11 throughout the Muslim world and is seeking to force as many non-Muslims as possible into Islamic submission.  Within this kingdom, laws are being enforced or implemented in accordance to Sharia Law to produce your ID card and/or prove you are Muslim in order to buy or sell. If anyone wants to have any semblance of a life they will be forced to convert to Islam if they have not already done so. It may even get to the point where one will be unable to obtain an ID card if they are not Muslim. Want a job? Prove you’re a Muslim. Want a bank account? Prove you’re a Muslim. Want a credit card? A business? A place to live? Prove that you are a Muslim. As radicalization continues to take hold it will also get to the point where either you convert, or you are killed.  Indeed, many areas are already at this point today.

Revised 2/10/2015
  1. ICA
    02/15/2012 at 3:36 PM

    Yes, Newton was very interesting. I wouldn’t agree with everything that he believed or wrote (he denied the Trinity, for example), but through observation he certainly understood that “This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being. … This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all” – Sir Isaac Newton.


  2. Anonymous
    02/15/2012 at 11:58 PM

    You guys ought to read some of David Flynn’s stuff. Some of it is definitely in the category of “sci-fi” biblical prophecy interpretation, but he was very influenced by Newton (even used that as his handle on his Watcher forum). Sadly, he recently passed away. He was a committed believer and did not share Newton’s theological aberrations.

    Here is a link to a post of his theories on the Temple Mount and the mathematical/spiritual implications that may or may not be implicit therein. Again, read with an open mind and a grain of salt. Some of it will definitely make you go “hmmmm….”. Willard, if you are reading this, you might love this stuff. :)




  3. 02/16/2012 at 1:43 AM

    I have a copy of, and read “Temple at the Center of Time” by Flynn, very interesting. Willard is also is a big fan of his. Sorry to hear he is gone. If I had to guess, I bet his favorite number was 2,520.


  4. Willard
    02/16/2012 at 2:02 AM

    You would probably be right Kurt – Yes AHF I too have read his book and found it very intriguing the 2520 number is simply an amazing number – But like you say an open mind and a grain of salt


    Here is one for you to think about or ponder – I do not think this was in his book

    The writing on the wall in Daniel was in the last year of the Babylonian empire and the probable date was Oct 13, 539 BC when Darius the Mede over threw Belshazzar’s kingdom and brought the end to Babylonian rule.

    Da 5:25 This is the inscription that was written: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN 26 This is what these words mean: Mene: God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end. 27 Tekel You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting. 28 Peres Your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.

    Each of the words that the fingers inscribed on the wall there is a measure of time and of weight like oz, lb. Gram, ton etc. The basic unit of weight was the gold shekel or Tekel in this verse. Ezekiel tells us in 45:12 what these measures were. Eze 45:12(RSV) The shekel shall be twenty gerahs. Five shekels shall be five shekels ten shekels shall be ten shekels and your mina shall be fifty shekels.

    Following are the totals of the writing on the wall. Mene = 50 shekels Mene = 50 shekels, Tekel = 1 shekel Parsin or Peres = 25 shekels. The total equals 126 shekels which again equals 2520 gerahs as per one shekel the same as 20 gerahs. So this 2520 number is also in this prophecy. What God is telling us is that not only is he bringing the Babylonian kingdom to an end he also will punish the realm of Babylon and the land of the Babylonians for 2520 years after which time it will be revived for a time and for a purpose.

    Iraq (Babylon) became a member of both the UN and the Arab League in 1945 which is 2520 biblical years from 539 BC when Babylon ceased to be a nation. It is the same year that the Second World War ended with Germany when Germany surrendered on May 7 1945. This surrender finally freed the Jewish people from the concentration camps just like Darius freed them in 539 BC (the prophecy of the dry bones) and they have never since been a slave to any nation.


  5. ICA
    02/16/2012 at 12:03 PM

    Nickelsaver (@nickelsaver) :

    Sorry, I subscribe to the theory that the EU is the vehicle (a revived Roman Empire). That the Euro’s design is perfectly in place to sub-plant the Dollar as the worlds reserve currency. And yes, that the beast will have more than regional power, it will be global.

    But before I get any deeper into this. I am going to read what you offer so I can give a more Berean reply.

    No worries brother, I commend you for having a good Berean spirit. In addition to the articles I’ve written in the Theology and Eschatology section, I’d also recommend a study of the following teachings:

    * Dr. John MacArthur – Dr. John MacArthur Now Teaches the ‘Islamic End-Time Paradigm’, not the ‘Revived Roman Empire’
    * Chuck Missler – AntiChrist – An Alternative Ending
    * Walid Shoebat – End Times Today – What Does Scripture Say?


    • 02/16/2012 at 8:10 PM


      I’ve come to the determination that it would make no difference what biblical text I would use to refute your interpretation. It all comes down to this “Let him who has ears to hear”. I think you’ve made up your mind.

      I would leave and just let you believe what you like. but i really believe that there is a danger in your teaching. And that danger is that you see the beast coming in a frontal attack. It is too obvious to look at Islam and say it is a beast in relation to Judaism/Christianity, since Islam is visibly at odds with both faiths.

      In order for the elect to be deceived. The beast would, I believe, come from within a Judao-Christian realm. That is where the apostate catholic church fits in.

      Also. You need to do your research on the monetary aspect. That is the angle I am exploring at present. I believe that God led me to this blog http://fofoa.blogspot.com/. If you read enough you will find clear evidence that the Euro is in position to become the worlds reserve currency. The EU struggles aa a monetary union without a political leader. Its all set up.

      Sorry – too much evidence for me to buy into your “spiritual” interpretation.

      God Bless.


  6. Anonymous
    02/16/2012 at 1:00 PM

    Willard – I actually listened to an interview with Flynn recently in which he explained that very thing. Pretty amazing.



  7. Willard
    02/16/2012 at 5:08 PM

    A hole left by his passing – someone else I really miss is David Wilkerson. I still get David’s e-mails, he had some really deep understanding of God’s Word – his teaching went straight to the heart.


  8. ICA
    02/16/2012 at 9:44 PM

    Nickelsaver, “I’ve come to the determination that it would make no difference what biblical text I would use to refute your interpretation.”

    Hi Brother, what text would you use? Please share, and we can discuss. I use to believe in the Revived Roman Empire position myself, but like a growing number of Christians and teachers as of late, I’ve come to the conclusion that it was flawed and false with no real solid basis in Scripture. If you believe that there are Scriptures that refute my position, I am open to discussing them.

    Nickelsaver, “And that danger is that you see the beast coming in a frontal attack. It is too obvious to look at Islam and say it is a beast in relation to Judaism/Christianity, since Islam is visibly at odds with both faiths.”

    I’m not sure what you mean by a “frontal” attack, but how does that negate my position, or support a Revived Roman Empire view exactly? I fail to understand how you would conclude the Islamic/Middle Eastern paradigm position to be “dangerous”. In what way?

    Nickelsaver, “In order for the elect to be deceived”

    Can you please show me where you find this in Scripture? The elect are not deceived. How can they be the elect if they are?

    Nickelsaver, “The beast would, I believe, come from within a Judao-Christian realm. That is where the apostate catholic church fits in.”

    Roman Catholicism has its share of problematic doctrines. But so do many Protestant denominations. Allow me to ask the following questions:

    Are there any Roman Catholics who are born-again and saved by the blood of Christ, as they teach that Jesus is God in the flesh who died on the cross for the sins of the world?

    Are there any Muslims who are born again and saved by the blood of Christ, even though they deny the Father and deny that Jesus is God in the flesh who died on the cross for the sins of the world?

    There are millions of Roman Catholics suffering for Christ today. Many of them are being persecuted and killed for refusing to renounce Jesus Christ and convert to Islam. Are you telling me that none of these Christians who are being killed for the faith of Jesus are going to Heaven?

    If Roman Catholicism is the Beast, how is it that there can be Roman Catholics who are saved? If the Book of Revelation speaks about events that not only happen throughout history, but also in the eschaton of time, why do you consider Roman Catholicism the Antichrist/Beast when Islam has murdered an exponentially larger number of Christians, and why is Roman Catholicism today not killing non-Catholic Christians when Islam continues to do so at an ever increasing pace? Why is the Pope not calling for the heads of Protestant Christians, when radical Islamists all over the world call for it even today? Does it not stand to reason that Islam — which calls for the killing of all Christians regardless of whether one is Catholic or Protestant, and which also sanctions the beheading of these ‘infidels’ — is in fact the Beast that both Daniel and John prophesied about, and not Roman Catholicism wherein there are those who are born again by the Holy Spirit of God?


  9. ICA
    02/16/2012 at 9:46 PM

    Nickelsaver, “If you read enough you will find clear evidence that the Euro is in position to become the worlds reserve currency. The EU struggles aa a monetary union without a political leader. Its all set up.”

    What is all set up? Where do you find in Scripture the idea that there will be a “world reserve currency” or a world leader of some sort?

    There was an article written by Jack Kinsella a few years ago called The Closer We Get that I think you might find enlightening. Here is a portion of it:

    But there’s something I want you to notice that is unique to the antichrist’s overall system and unholy Trinity.

    There is but one religious system on the earth today that encompasses all three elements of society and holds them co-equal and under the control of a single authority.

    Only one religious system seeks to integrate its religious laws with its political system and then impose it by force as part of its religious proselytizing campaign.

    There is only one global religious system that integrates finance into its legal structure, making all three completely interdependent upon on another.

    You already know which religion I’m talking about and I’ve not even named it. Which establishes the point with which we entered into today’s discussion.

    If it isn’t false, it isn’t defamatory.


    We know that the political beast is a politician and it is reasonable to assume that he will arise from one of the Mediterranean countries. But what of the religious beast?

    Since Italy is an Mediterranean country and since the second beast is pictured with two horns like a lamb, the automatic and logical interpretive assumption is that he must be the head of the Roman Catholic Church.

    But while the RCC is both a church and government (Vatican) and the Papacy has great power, it doesn’t have the kind of power necessary to fulfill Revelation.

    It used to have that kind of power, right through the Middle Ages and into the modern Industrial Age. But it doesn’t anymore. And it is impossible to imagine it ever holding that kind of power again.

    One might have been able to argue in 1492 that the RCC was the religion of the sword with the power to compel conversion on pain of death, it sounds kind of silly today.

    It isn’t simply a knee-jerk identification of the latest systemic boogey-man as the system of the Beast — the Religion We Dare Not Name actually fills in many of the missing blank spaces.

    The Religion We Dare Not Name is also constructed on three social pillars; economic, religious and political. It is not a faith that flourishes in a pluralistic society.

    Its religious laws are deemed to be the supreme law of the world-wide community. It oversees all aspects of society; banking, politics, worship, and social.

    In those parts of the world where it reigns, no person can freely opt out of the system. The penalty for conversion is death — the original 6th century code [still in force] mandates decapitation.

    The antichrist confirms a peace covenant for seven years. Putting a time limit on a peace deal is foreign to Western thinking. It is even foreign to Jewish thinking.

    (But it is so common to the Religion We Dare Not Name that there is even a name for it — “hudna”.)

    The peace deal is abrogated at the half-way point. The Religion We Dare Not Name has a doctrine that allows this, based on a treaty made and then broken by that religion’s founder.

    (They even have a name for this kind of false peace treaty — “Quriyash”.)

    After he captured the city, the founder of the Religion We Dare Not Name beheaded between 600 and 900 of its defenders, according to its holy book.

    That holy book is TODAY shown more reverence by American military personnel (who must wear gloves to keep from defiling it) than any other book in existence.

    To this day, the very devout among the Religion We Dare Not Name proudly display what is called the “mark of prostration” — a callused spot on the forehead created by repeatedly banging it against a prayer rug five times per day.

    Another important distinction is that I have absolutely no fear of naming the RCC. I won’t be denounced to some human rights court somewhere for defaming the Vatican.

    The Jesuits won’t send out a hit squad to take me out for offending the Pope or blaspheming the RCC.

    It is equally important to point out that I could name any European leader now in office as the antichrist. There is no legal threat and no physical threat.

    On the other hand, the religion of the Beast, according to Scripture, promises both. (And in this Year of Our Lord of 2009, and in particular, when it comes to the Religion We Dare Not Name, I have plenty of reason to be careful with my words.)

    Bible prophecy promises that during the Tribulation, those who refuse to worship the beast will be killed. Those who do not bear the mark on their forehead or their right hand will be excluded from society, unable to buy or sell.

    It is no stretch of the imagination to say that Europe is well into its post-Christian era, while the Religion We Dare Not Name is currently the fastest growing religious system on the Continent.

    Neither does it take a lot of imagination to see some kind of religious ‘merger’ whereby the Religion We Dare Not Name permits the RCC to operate under some kind of subordinate status.

    There’s a name for that too — dhimmi.

    There is little doubt that Bible prophecy was addressed to the generation that would witness its unfolding. For the past twenty centuries, every generation believed it could, at least, be the one that would see the Return of Christ.

    But from where we sit on the timeline, if this isn’t the generation the Bible describes, then when that generation does arrive, it will have no way to identify itself.

    Obviously, when one is looking at something from a great distance, the details aren’t nearly so clear as they are from up close.

    For much of the past two thousand years, we’ve looked at Bible prophecy from a distance. And from a distance, one can sort of make the RCC fit, like you can make your car look better from a distance when you squint.

    But after you get close enough, squinting doesn’t help. Even if you don’t want to see it the way it really is, you can’t ignore the flaws anymore.

    There are flaws in the old RCC/False Prophet model that once worked for so well from a distance that are too big to ignore from up close. Not the least of which is that the next most likely candidate for the role is a Religion We Dare Not Name.

    When did that happen?

    I wonder what religion he’s referring to …


  10. Willard
    02/17/2012 at 12:37 AM

    Nickelsaver, – When you figure out and understand who THE PEOPLE OF THE RULER TO COME that destroyed the temple sanctuary and the city are – you will than understand where the prince or the A/C will come from – check out which Legions were used and destroyed Jerusalem – not one Legion cme from Europe every one was Middle Eastern Syrian, Turks, Babylonians etc.

    Da 9:26 ……………….. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: l War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed

    Who were the four horns in Daniel 8 that came out of the goats horn and scattered Jerusalem, Judah, and Israel – who came out of a single horn that was broken off and that Zech referes to below – where do you see Europe in this?

    Zec 1:18 Then I looked up—and there before me were four horns!
    Zec 1:19 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, “What are these?” He answered me, “These are the horns that scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem.”
    Zec 1:20 Then the LORD showed me four craftsmen.
    Zec 1:21 I asked, “What are these coming to do?” He answered, “These are the horns that scattered Judah so that no one could raise his head, but the craftsmen have come to terrify them and throw down these horns of the nations who lifted up their horns against the land of Judah to scatter its people.”

    Why and when will the sons of Zion rise against the sons of Greece by that I mean what was once ME Greece- it will be at a time when he will restore twice as much to Israel – after the second return

    Zec 9:12 Return to your fortress, O prisoners of hope; even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you

    Zec 9:13 I will bend Judah as I bend my bow and fill it with Ephraim. I will rouse your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece, and make you like a warrior’s sword


  11. 02/17/2012 at 2:22 AM

    ICA, you are way to invested in your local islamic interpretation for me to even bother.

    Islam does figure in, but its a case of good cop, bad cop towards Israel. Islam is the bad cop and the A/C out of the EU is the good cop making the peace treaty. The whole world has been moving toward ecumenism (a single religion). The merging of Christianity/Judaism /Islam/Atheism/Pantheism etc becomes possible with the removal of the Church and also the Holy Spirit.

    Fact is, humanity is on the verge of seeing itself as GOD. Genetic re-engineering, a social super-organism seeking to glorify itself. This is the lie from the Garden itself. The purposed by the serpent to Eve. But it is also the goal of Satan to be worshipped as God, individually. Not merely as the force behind one of many false religions.

    When you figure out and understand who THE PEOPLE OF THE RULER TO COME that destroyed the temple sanctuary and the city are – you will than understand where the prince or the A/C will come from – check out which Legions were used and destroyed Jerusalem – not one Legion cme from Europe every one was Middle Eastern Syrian, Turks, Babylonians etc.

    And the Government that RULED the known world at that time was? The Roman Empire. The Roman Emperor was considered God in the flesh, and demanded to be worshiped as such. No nation within the bounderies of the Roman Empire acted outside the will of the Roman Emperor. The enemies of Israel were and still are EVERYONE, not just Islam. He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. Matthew 12:30

    Follow the money…it fits the EU/RCC/RRE model


  12. ICA
    02/17/2012 at 11:56 AM

    Hi brother, before I reply let me make a note to remind anyone reading that this is a non-salvific, secondary doctrinal issue. It is one that we can debate within the Church and we can have disagreements, and that is perfectly ok. As brothers in Christ, we remain united in the essentials of the Christian faith.

    Nickelsaver, “ICA, you are way to invested in your local islamic interpretation for me to even bother.”

    Shouldn’t that be the other way around considering that for about half of my Christian life I believed in the Revived Roman Empire model?

    Nickelsaver, “… the A/C out of the EU is the good cop making the peace treaty.”

    That’s the first time I’ve read anyone say that the Antichrist from Europe would be a good cop. What Scriptures do you use to support the idea that a European AC will make a ‘peace treaty’ with Israel? This is found nowhere in Scripture. I understand that some try to use Daniel 9:27 and the “70th week of Daniel”, but I see many problems with such an interpretation.

    There are three views regarding the 70th week: A. Already fulfilled, B. Partially fulfilled, and C. Not yet fulfilled.

    The view that it has not yet been fulfilled is not only the newest but also the weakest, in my opinion. This traditional dispensational view is a recent invention and was never taught prior to the 19th century.

    Although the first view — that it has already been fulfilled — is the most prevalent view throughout church history, I lean towards the second view that it is partially fulfilled, but am open to the first view as well to some degree. I believe that Christ already fulfilled at least the first half of Daniel’s 70th week. The Messiah is mentioned more times in Daniel 9:25-26 than anyone else and it seems to be Daniel’s primary focus:

    Dan 9:27a, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease…”

    Now compare Dan 9:27a with the following:

    Gal 3:17, “And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.”

    Heb 8:6-8, “… he [Christ] is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

    Heb 10:1-10, “For the law … can never with these same sacrifices … make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered?… For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come — In the volume of the book it is written of Me — To do Your will, O God.'” … then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].”

    Although the 70 weeks of Daniel can be consecutive from beginning to end, there is the definite possibility in my mind that there is a pause in the middle of the 70th week. We even find an example of a pause in time essentially from a comma. In Luke 4:16-21 when Jesus went into the synagogue and read the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-3 to proclaim its fulfillment, He stopped mid-way in the prophecy. This is what He fulfilled:

    Isaiah 61:1-3, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD [{– Fulfilled | –} Not yet fulfilled], and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.”

    Interestingly, Jesus felt the need to mention something a few verses later in Luke 4:25, “But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land.” Could this have been a clue to something? Only God knows. But with respect to the 70th week of Daniel, however, if only the first half was fulfilled then the other half is yet to come — the 1260 days / 42 months / time, times and the dividing of time (3.5 prophetic years of Antichrist). Please show me anywhere in Scripture that speaks of a “7 year tribulation”. It does not exist.

    Having said that, aside from Daniel 9:27, what else would you use to support the idea that a European Antichrist makes a peace treaty with Israel?

    Nickelsaver, “The whole world has been moving toward ecumenism (a single religion). The merging of Christianity/Judaism /Islam/Atheism/Pantheism etc”

    I see a small number of so-called outlier “Christian” churches attempting to embrace Islam, but not the other way around. Islam infiltrates to destroy from within, removing all other teachings until only Islam remains. Teachings that support the notion that the Muslim world would turn its back on Mohammed’s teachings in the Qur’an and the Hadith (which would guarantee them “hellfire”) are, frankly speaking, simpleminded and irrational. Do you have any sources indicating conclusively that the Muslim world is abandoning Islam and is adopting non-Islamic theology that the Qur’an calls apostate/infidel/kaffir, theologies whose adherents are said to be worthy of death? To the contrary, it is embracing the teachings of Mohammed in the Qur’an and the Hadith and we’re seeing a tremendous amount of persecution against Jews and Christians at the hands of Muslims.

    Nickelback, “And the Government that RULED the known world at that time was? The Roman Empire.”

    Can you show me where the text says that it is the “government of the prince that shall come”? The fact of the matter is that Daniel says that it is the “people of the prince“, not the government.

    By the time Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD, the Legions responsible for the destruction were dominated by eastern peoples from Syria, Egypt, Asia Minor (Turkey) and that general area. This is confirmed by Tacitus, Josephus and numerous scholars and historians. Thus, although the Legions responsible for the destruction of the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD were by that time considered Roman citizens, they were not European people. (The Wars of The Jews, History of the Destruction of Jerusalem By Flavius Josephus, Trans. William Whiston BOOK V: Chapter 13; and Soldiers, Cities, and Civilians in Roman Syria by Nigel Pollard, Ph.D, p. 115).

    Prior to the turn of the 1st Century the majority of the men who served in the Roman armies were Italians. That is true. But as the Roman Empire grew it became virtually impossible for it to be manned with only Italian soldiers, so Emperor Augustus was forced to change the ethnic demographic of men who made up the Roman armies, and after the reforms were completed early in the 1st Century just a small part of the Roman army consisted of only Italian men — the Praetorian Guard [1, 2]. The rest of the army was expanding to be increasingly made up of citizens who were from the outer provinces far away from Rome.

    From Josephus in The Complete Works of Josephus, The Wars Of The Jews Or The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem (Book III, Chapter 1):

    “So Vespasian sent his son Titus [who], came by land into Syria, where he gathered together the Roman forces, with a considerable number of auxiliaries from the kings in that neighborhood.”

    In the next chapter Josephus writes:

    “Malchus also, the king of Arabia, sent a thousand horsemen, besides five thousand footmen, the greatest part of which were archers; so that the whole army, including the auxiliaries sent by the kings, as well horsemen and footmen, when all were united together, amounted to sixty thousand.”

    Virtually all Roman scholars concur that the overwhelming majority of soldiers would have been Eastern provincial conscripts by the time Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 70 AD.

    Nickelsaver, “No nation within the bounderies of the Roman Empire acted outside the will of the Roman Emperor.”

    Are you sure?

    Josephus records that Caesar did not want the temple destroyed, writing:

    “And now a certain person came running to Titus, and told him of this fire … whereupon he rose up in great haste, and, as he was, ran to the holy house, in order to have a stop put to the fire; after him followed all his commanders, and after them followed the several legions, in great astonishment; so there was a great clamor and tumult raised, as was natural upon the disorderly motion of so great an army. Then did Caesar, both by calling to the soldiers that were fighting, with a loud voice, and by giving a signal to them with his right hand, order them to quench the fire.” (Josephus War of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 4).

    The soldiers were hell bent on destroying the sanctuary, despite Caesar’s orders to put out the fire. But they hated the Jews. And as Josephus later writes, “And thus was the holy house burnt down, without Caesar’s approbation.”

    History bears witness to the very fact that the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary were almost exclusively Arab/Egyptian/Syrian/Asia Minorian, etc. and from that general area. From Tacitus in The History New Ed edition Book 5.1 Editor: Moses Hadas (Translated by Alfred Church and William Brodribb; Modern Library, 2003 NY):

    “Titus Caesar … found in Judaea three legions, the 5th, the 10th, and the 15th .. To these he added the 12th from Syria, and some men belonging to the 18th and 3rd, whom he had withdrawn from Alexandria. This force was accompanied … by a strong contingent of Arabs, who hated the Jews with the usual hatred of neighbors …”

    Brother, history is against the European/RCC model. Current events are against the European/RCC model. But most of all, Scripture is against the European/RCC model.

    Blessings …


    • 02/18/2012 at 7:57 AM

      From the same article http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_islam6.php

      Shoebat displays some tortuous logic throughout his book. A good example can be found in his attempt to explain away the meaning of Daniel 9:26, a passage Richardson avoided dealing with in his book. The plain sense meaning of this passage is that the Antichrist will come from the people who will destroy the Temple.
      Shoebat tries to dispel this meaning by arguing that the Roman legions that carried out the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD were composed primarily of Syrians and Turks. He therefore concludes that the Antichrist will arise from the Syrians or Turks and will be a Muslim.45
      On the contrary, Bible prophecy scholar Sean Osborne has proved that the Roman legions were composed of Roman soldiers, recruited from what is present day Italy, and were led by Roman officers of historical renown. Local Syrians and Arabs were recruited as auxiliaries to take care of menial tasks, and had, at best, logistical support roles. “They were in no conceivable manner representative of ‘the people of the prince who shall come.'”46
      But Shoebat’s argument here is really grasping at straws in the wind! For one thing, the ethnicity of the soldiers is irrelevant because the Romans never used mercenaries. All their soldiers were citizens of Rome. But it would not have made any difference if the legions had been composed of Australian Aborigines, for it was the Roman government that decided to destroy Jerusalem, it was the Roman government that gave the orders, and it was Roman generals who carried out the destruction. Rome was the rod of God’s judgment and it is from the Roman people that the Antichrist will arise.


  13. Willard
    02/17/2012 at 1:17 PM

    ICA – Trust you do not mind but I lifted your last reply above and pasted it on Joel’s Trumpet were we are having a similar debate -Daniel – Fulfilled – being Fulfilled or Future Fulfillment – I considered your response above an excellent rebuttal


  14. 02/17/2012 at 6:19 PM

    ICA, “Brother, history is against the European/RCC model. Current events are against the European/RCC model. But most of all, Scripture is against the European/RCC model.”

    I do not see it that way. In fact, I see quite the opposite. Current events and those that have transpired have only served to reinforce the EU/RCC model IMO.

    Within your model, if accepted as true, should we then welcome a one world government, a physical mark and currency, and the repudiation of orthodox Christianity?

    Why your view is dangerous. If there is a pretribulation rapture (argumentative), all those unbelievers that bought into your theory would then be left behind with a misunderstanding of the events yet to unfold.

    I will continue to entertain your view. Conversely, you might benefit from examining the monetary aspect. My perspective is to be aware of ALL possible outcomes, which is why I prepare to go through the tribulation.

    If your perspective is true. I would also advise you to convert your fiat currency savings into physical gold. This would be more important than ever within Islamic controlled regions.



  15. 02/18/2012 at 1:16 AM

    From this article The Muslim Antichrist Theory
    An Evaluation

    The European Union

    Another recent article by Richardson gloats over internal problems being experienced by the European Union. It was titled “EU Collapse: Doom for popular Bible prophesies?”51 Richardson observed: “Many staunch adherents to the Euro-centered end-time theory are slowly awakening to the possibility that soon there may not even be a European Union at all.” He goes so far as to compare the prediction of an end-time revival of the Roman Empire to the Watchtower’s proclamation that Jesus would return in 1975! I found this comparison to be downright ludicrous considering the fact that Jesus did not return in 1975 but the Roman Empire has been revived, as predicted, in the form of the European Union.
    Further, I found this attack to be amusing, because I consider the internal problems of the European Union to be a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. After all, what was the symbol of the revived Roman Empire in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream? It was the feet mixed of iron and clay. Such a mixture is inherently unstable, and I have always interpreted it to mean that the revived Roman Empire of the end times would be a loose confederation of states before being galvanized into a powerful empire by the Antichrist.

    I would like to add. And I have provided this link twice before. http://fofoa.blogspot.com/ The EU and the Euro not only will survive, from a monetary perspective, the Euro was designed to rise to the position of world reserve currency.

    So Joel Richardson’s contention is just wishful thinking for advancement of his own theory.


  16. 02/18/2012 at 7:52 AM

    From the same article http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_islam6.php

    The Extent of the Antichrist’s Kingdom

    One of the most peculiar aspects of Richardson’s end time scenario is his insistence that the Mahdi’s revived Ottoman Empire will be a regional one and not a worldwide one as is claimed in both Islamic and biblical prophecy.
    In order to sustain this totally revisionist interpretation of end time prophecy, Richardson goes to great pains to deny the clear meaning of Revelation 13:7 which reads as follows: “And it was given to him [the Antichrist] to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.”
    Let me ask you a question: What more would God have to say to convince us that the Antichrist will have a worldwide kingdom?
    Yet, Richardson tries to dismiss this verse as nothing but hyperbole. He does so by quoting Daniel 5:18-19 where it says that Nebuchadnezzar, was feared by “all peoples and nations and men of every language.” Richardson then asks, “Did every single nation in the earth fear Nebuchadnezzar?” 30 My answer would be, “Yes, all nations that were aware of him.” That’s all the statement means in its context.
    Richardson then quotes 1 Kings 4:34 which says that men of all nations came to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, “sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom.” He then asks derisively, “Was Solomon’s wisdom so impressive that not a single king in all the earth failed to hear of it?”31 That’s not what the verse says. Read it again. It says the kings who had heard of his wisdom sent representatives — not all kings.
    Context determines meaning, and the context of Revelation 13:7 clearly means that the Antichrist kingdom will be worldwide, not just a regional coalition of Muslim nations. His attempt to limit the kingdom of the Antichrist to a regional area is reminiscent of the attempt of Genesis revisionists to limit the worldwide flood of Noah to the Middle East.
    Furthermore, the worldwide nature of the Antichrist’s kingdom is affirmed in Daniel 7:23 where the prophet states that the Antichrist will “devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.” Richardson ignores this verse.


    • 02/18/2012 at 4:53 PM

      Actually. I don’t believe that Islam Eschatology is even relevant. I am only concern with the bible. so it doesn’t really matter weather he got it correct or not. What is important is that the biblical basis of an Islamic Antichrist is, IMO, not founded.


  17. ICA
    02/18/2012 at 10:14 AM

    Hi Nickelsaver, Dr. David Reagan is a nice man and sincere in what he believes I am sure, but his article(s) in this respect have been poorly researched and have been well addressed by both Joel Richardson and Walid Shoebat. Read here and here for example. I’ve also demonstrated why he is incorrect in a number of articles I have written on this blog, such as this one. Additionally, Dr. Reagan has misrepresented what Muslims teach and believe in an effort to discount the “Islamic End Times Paradigm” and has done so without correcting his errors after they have been exposed. For instance, Dr. David Reagan claimed that the belief in “Al Mahdi” was exclusively a Shia belief, one that Sunnis did not believe in. But the fact of the matter is that belief in “Al Mahdi” is mandatory according to Sunni teachings. Here is one example from a Sunni source:

    “Al-Sayid Sabiq, the Mufti for the ‘Muslim Brotherhood,’ in his book, ‘al- ‘Aqa’id al-Islamiyyah,; that: ‘The idea about the Mahdi is indeed valid, and is one of the Islamic tenets that one must believe in.’ Mr. Sabiq also narrated a variety of traditions relating to the appearance of al-Mahdi (AS) in the above book.

    The recent Fatwa in this issue was given in Mecca by ‘The Muslim World League’ (Rabitatul ‘Alamil Islami) on Oct. 11, 1976 (23 Shawwal 1396). This Fatwa states that more than twenty companions narrated traditions concerning al-Mahdi, and gives a list of those scholars of Hadith who have transmitted these narrations, and those who have written books on al-Mahdi. The Fatwa states:

    “The memorizers (Huffadh) and scholars of Hadith have verified that there are authentic (Sahih) and acceptable (Hasan) reports among the traditions related to al-Mahdi. The majority of these traditions are related through numerous authorities (Mutawatir). There is no doubt that the status of those reports are Sahih and Mutawatir. (They have also verified) that the belief in Mahdi is obligatory, and that it is one of the beliefs of Ahlussunnah wal Jama’a. Only those ignorant of the Sunnah and innovators in doctrine deny it.”

    Here is another Sunni reference. In their book, “Al Mahdi and the End of Time” (1997), Muhammad Ibn Izzat and Muhammad Arif, two well-known Egyptian authors, identify the Mahdi from the Book of Revelation, quoting Hadith transmitter Ka’ab al-Ahbar. In one place, they write:

    “I find the Mahdi recorded in the books of the Prophets… For instance, the Book of Revelation says: ‘And I saw and behold a white horse. He that sat on him…went forth conquering and to conquer.'”

    Izzat and Arif then go on to say:

    “It is clear that this man is the Mahdi who will ride the white horse and judge by the Qur’an (with justice) and with whom will be men with marks of prostration (zabiba) on their foreheads…. The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and Christians; if they accept it they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed.” (page 16).

    I can show numerous examples like the two above. It would have taken only a few minutes for Dr. Reagan to find this information easily online.

    Consider the following, Nickelsaver. Many of our brothers and sisters in Christ teach a pre-trib rapture (a teaching not taught prior to the mid 19th century), and in my view pre-tribism is easily demonstrated to be 100% false. In order for pre-tribism to survive as a teaching, it requires the scope of Antichrist’s rule to be literally global (which is problematic in and of itself if he is waging so many wars and worrying about other nations right up until the Second Coming of Christ.) The pre-trib position has even made, out of necessity, the “great tribulation” out to be so horrible over every square inch of land on the planet that nobody could ever possibly survive as they run for their lives from the axe-wielding Antichrist police carrying portable guillotines, tattoo kits and microchip implanters. That sort of idea is pretty much required for pre-tribism to work. It makes you wonder how anyone could ever possibly find the time to “make merry, and send gifts to one another” near the end of the tribulation (Rev. 11:10) if the world is nearly completely destroyed, or how there could ever be a place in the “wilderness” that is safe from the hands of Antichrist (Rev 12:6) if he were to actually rule the entire world. As such these teachers are, as you say, “too invested” in pre-tribism and a global antichrist from Europe. To admit that they are wrong means that they would have to rewrite their books and re-do their videos. Heaven forbid if that should ever happen. If they’re wrong about this, what else are they wrong about …

    If you would like me to address one point at a time, let me know which. I’d be more than happy to address anything that you believe has not already been discussed here.


  18. 02/18/2012 at 11:15 AM

    The use of synecdoche in scripture has been very adequately explained by ICA here. That article ends with the statement “In light of the whole counsel of Scripture the Antichrist’s rule and political influence will be relegated to the whole MUSLIM world, but not the world as a whole.” ICA, perhaps you have undersold, at least in that article, the impact of Islam on ‘every tribe and people and tongue and nation.” (Maybe elsewhere you’ve said essentially what I’m about to…)

    I have to ask:

    What other system has had more world-wide affect?
    What else ‘rules’ in every nation, causing men to tremble and submit?
    Who else in this world could be rightly described as ‘Beastly’?
    Who else issues edicts that are followed the world over?
    What other authority dictates monetary policy, dietary laws, crime and punishment, marriage and family relationships?
    What other movement has slaughtered more people, easily north of 100 million?
    Who else in this world thirsts for world-wide domination?
    What other government ruled over Jerusalem and a wide swath of the ancient world following Rome, was dealt a fatal blow and is even now slowly regathering, like droplets of the futuristic Terminator reassembling to fight again…

    Islam IS world wide. It DOES make the whole world shake. It will CERTAINLY rule the world, if the Hero does not arrive soon.


  19. 02/18/2012 at 11:30 AM

    Nickelsaver (@nickelsaver) :
    Richardson then asks, “Did every single nation in the earth fear Nebuchadnezzar?” My answer would be, “Yes, all nations that were aware of him.” That’s all the statement means in its context.

    You can’t have it both ways – either the principal “all the nations that were aware of him” applies to both Daniel and Revelation, or it applies to neither. In Daniel’s context Nebuchadnezzar ruled “all peoples and nations and men of every language”; in John’s, the prophesied future Beast would do likewise.

    The island of Patmos, from where Revelation was written, is a few miles off the coast of the king that had “not yet come.” (Rev 17:10) John is well within his rights to describe the Beast’s domination as being world-wide, that is, John’s world, the rationale in my previous post notwithstanding.


    • 02/18/2012 at 4:47 PM

      “You can’t have it both ways – either the principal “all the nations that were aware of him” applies to both Daniel and Revelation, or it applies to neither.

      Sure you can. The principle applied to Nebuchadnezzar is within the context of all he controlled. He could not have controlled the whole world because his reach was not that broad. But he controlled all that which was within his reach. The Antichrist will control the whole world, because his reach WILL BE that broad.

      Surely you don’t believe that the Apostles knew that the Gospel would need to be shared with the America’s? They did not know that it existed did they? Yet do you have any doubt that God intended the whole world to receive the Gospel? it is the same principle.

      You need to face something about this Islamic Antichrist theory. Scripture is purposely being interpreted to make it fit.


  20. ICA
    02/18/2012 at 11:47 AM

    Kurt J, “That article ends with the statement ‘In light of the whole counsel of Scripture the Antichrist’s rule and political influence will be relegated to the whole MUSLIM world, but not the world as a whole.’ ICA, perhaps you have undersold, at least in that article, the impact of Islam on ‘every tribe and people and tongue and nation.” (Maybe elsewhere you’ve said essentially what I’m about to…)”

    I should probably clarify in that article that although the “seat of the Beast” will be regional (which is the thrust of that article – theocratic Islamic governments are relegated primarily to North Africa and the Middle East), Islam’s influence definitely is and will be felt globally, as we are seeing today both inside and outside of politics.

    Also consider that just last year an American-born Al Qaeda leader publicly called upon Muslims in America to start buying guns and begin killing non-Muslim Americans. As I wrote here:

    I’ve believed for some time now that when this does come it will, with the right “triggering event”, not be isolated. It will be wide-scale. As we all know, there are millions upon millions of Muslims living in Western nations today. If an event were to occur in the world that would be eschatologically pivotal for Muslims this would be sure to awaken any radical elements within the Muslim population, regardless of where they live, and even radicalize some of those who were previously considered “moderate”. The arrival of al Mahdi, for example, could become the “triggering event” that has the potential to precipitate a sudden surge in Islamic terrorism all over the globe. If we are complacent into believing that any such scenario could never happen or is highly unlikely, we don’t need to look far before we come face to face with the sobering reality that Islamic terrorist cells are, today, already forming within our own borders.

    In February 2007 Dave Gaubatz, a former U.S. Federal Agent and State Department Arabic linguist, wrote in “American Thinker” that “There is every reason to suspect that we will endure suicide missions by Islamist sleeper cells. They are already in place. They are waiting for the right time. I know this from experience.” [1] His warning was brought to light again in January 2009 when Homeland Security released a detailed report revealing the growing threat of one such terrorist group, stating:

    An official government report concludes the Iranian-backed Islamic terror group [Hezbollah] has been forming sleeper cells throughout the United States that could become operational.

    The report estimates Hezbollah could become a much more potent national security threat by 2014. The group was responsible for the 1983 Beirut Marine Barracks bombing, which killed 241 U.S. Marines and 58 French servicemen.

    ‘The Lebanese Shiite group Hezbollah does not have a known history of
 fomenting attacks inside the U.S., but that could change if there is some
 kind of ‘triggering’ event, the homeland assessment cautions,” the report

    The report, obtained by the Middle East Newsline and marked “for official use only,” did not define a “triggering
 event.” Most of the threats cited in the report had been raised by the
 Homeland Security Department.

    To contextualize the potential magnitude of what this could entail, consider the number of Muslims living in Western nations today. Although I believe that the vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace we cannot allow ourselves to become comatose to the reality that there are those who do not want to live in peace with the “infidel.” There are tens of millions of Muslims living in western countries, with an estimated 5-7 million Muslims living in the United States alone. Can we begin to imagine the havoc to be wrought if even 10% of them were to engage in terrorist activities to secure themselves a place in paradise? This could be at least 500,000 radicalized followers of the ‘prophet Mohammad’ who want us dead for the cause of Dar al Islam. The Fort Hood killer, a Muslim US Army Major, waged his own jihad and took 13 lives. This was just one man with a gun. Imagine what half a million all throughout the country wielding guns and knives could do with similar intent …


  21. Willard
    02/18/2012 at 12:57 PM

    If he will control the world then who are the people from the East and the North that will alarm him??

    Da 11:44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many

    Islam verses Rome and the RCC – Islam is a religeous power – it is a political system and power – and a military system and power each of the three unyielding to anything or anyone – this is what the bible teaches us that the A/C will be



    • 02/18/2012 at 5:07 PM

      When the EU Antichrist takes power. He will unite Christianity(apostate)/Judaism/Islam. Ecumenism is in full swing.


  22. ICA
    02/18/2012 at 5:51 PM

    Nickelsaver, “Sure you can. The principle applied to Nebuchadnezzar is within the context of all he controlled.”

    Brother, if you’re going to take the text literally — which is what you’re doing to support the idea that Antichrist controls the whole world — then that would not be what the text suggests:

    Daniel 2:36-38, “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them ALL. You are that head of gold.”

    You’re interpreting the text one way to support your view and reject another, and then another way when it suits you. The Islamic End Time Paradigm recognizes these figures of speech, interprets the text the way it was intended to be understood, and recognizes that the whole of Scripture does not support the number one pillar upon which a global European AC/RCC model stands.

    Nickelsaver, “The Antichrist will control the whole world, because his reach WILL BE that broad.”

    The original Greek/Hebrew text does not necessitate at all that his control will be that broad. Daniel 11:36-45 alone negates the idea that he controls every country on the planet. Why would he need to wage war against other nations if he already controls them? How can he control the whole world if other nations are themselves waging war against him? How can he control the whole world when there are nations who “escape his hand”?

    Nickelsaver, “When the EU Antichrist takes power. He will unite Christianity (apostate)/Judaism/Islam. Ecumenism is in full swing”

    What Scriptures do you use to support this idea?

    Nickelsaver, “Surely you don’t believe that the Apostles knew that the Gospel would need to be shared with the America’s? They did not know that it existed did they? Yet do you have any doubt that God intended the whole world to receive the Gospel? it is the same principle.”

    If I didn’t know better, some of the answers you’re giving would almost lead me to believe that you would read Colossians 1:23 and come to the conclusion that the Americas already heard the Gospel during the life of the Apostle Paul:

    Col 1:23, “if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

    But you don’t believe that do you? Why not?

    Or perhaps you believe that the king of Persia was given every single kingdom on earth:

    Ezra 1:2, “Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD Elohim of heaven hath given me ALL the kingdoms of the earth;”

    Or perhaps you believe that Caesar taxed the whole planet:

    Luke 2:1-3 “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.”

    Your only answer for these texts and others like them is that they’re not literal. They’re a figure of speech. But for those that speak about Antichrist, they must be literal, otherwise the Europe/RCC model crumbles.

    Nickelsaver, “I pray for pre and prepare for post.”

    That’s wise. And to that I would also suggest the following when it comes to Antichrist: Pray for regional, prepare for global.


    • 02/18/2012 at 7:42 PM

      “You’re only answer for these texts and others like them is that they’re not literal. They’re a figure of speech. But for those that speak about Antichrist, they must be literal, otherwise the Europe/RCC model crumbles.”

      I am willing to say that I view some things as literal and some things as figurative. As should you. You interpret to justify your theory (which is a minority position). I on the other hand do not put forth an interpretation, but rather follow one(s) that have been defined by many others. I look at your interpretation as implausible. But I do note it. I also see Historicism, Amillennialism, Preterism, Postmillennialism, and Idealism, as implausible. When I say that I pray for pre and prepare for post, i will actually be surprised if there is not a Rapture based on my view. But as events unfold I am more than willing to adjust my view.

      That being said, I believe we are seeing the fulfillment of the EU/RCC/RRE model. The establishment of the Euro was predicted before it came to pass. And if you bother to study it at all, you will see why it WILL become the monetary vehicle of the Antichrist.

      When you see that the entire world economic system is currently riding the back of the US dollar, which itself is backed by nothing since Nixon closed the gold window 30 years ago. And then realize that the Euro was designed to take over once the dollar broke from the weight of credit debt.

      The Euro accomplishes this by backing itself with gold, not as a fixed standard, but as a variable float against it. When the entire world, including Islamic countries which currently use the dollar to trade, find themselves needing the Euro to trade OIL. This will be the opportunity for the emergence and takeover of the EU Antichrist.

      You believe whatever you want. I just cannot see the Antichrist as coming out of Islam. Period.


      • A. S
        02/19/2012 at 5:58 AM

        I agree with your view, and also the majority of regular muslims in this world, and I have many friends who are, do not have a desire to take over the world or kill christians, they
        love me and I’m a christian. Yes there are radical extremist muslims, but the muslim majority do not even see them as muslims and call them heretics and are just as afraid of them as you are. The radicals would kill the normal muslims just as
        quickly. I believe the harlot on the 7 hills refers to rome, 7 hills of rome ring a bell ? drunk with the wine of martyrs and saints,
        hmm sounds like the catholic church to me, that owns nations and kingdoms and treasures, sound familiar ? If muhammed is the false prophet, is he going to be resurrected ? Did you know the official title of the pope adds up to 666 ? caused the
        world to be drunk with her wine ? Has anyone here researched
        the connection between the pope and the 33 degree free mason, luciferian illuminati, I suggest you look into it, Yes they
        would like you to see Islam as the antichrist system too, but who is it that wants to control the world through media, music,
        food, drugs, sorceries ? New World Order Elite that’s whom who is it that wants God out of the government and schools and off the dollar bill, who is it that turned christmas celebrations in schools to ‘winter holiday’ and soltice celebrations ? while forbiding nativities ? but hey its’ okay to call halloween halloween and celebrate it in schools. why is that not an “autumn celebration” ? Who is it that is calling evil good and good evil ? sounds a lot like our present culture to me.


  23. Willard
    02/18/2012 at 6:25 PM


    What king became like a BEAST eat grass like an animal and his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird – Nebuchadnezzar

    Think Mecca and Islam during the Hajji and think back the Nebuchadnezzar

    Da 3:4 Then the herald loudly proclaimed, “This is what you are commanded to do, O peoples, nations and men of every language:
    Da 3:5 As soon as you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes and all kinds of music, you must fall down and worship the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up
    Da 3:6 Whoever does not fall down and worship will immediately be thrown into a blazing furnace

    In Revelation we have four horses a black, a red, a white, and a green one (pale) check out the links for the below Middle Eastern flags. The PA, Syria, Jordan etc etc.



  24. ICA
    02/18/2012 at 9:02 PM

    Nickelsaver, “I am willing to say that I view some things as literal and some things as figurative. As should you. You interpret to justify your theory …”

    We do not interpret Scripture in light of a doctrine. I would argue that this is what pre-tribism does. It is what traditional dispensationalism does. It is what the European/RCC model does. Rather, I am interpreting doctrine in light of Scripture. As was mentioned earlier, I use to be a believer in the European/RCC model, but was forced to abandon that position in light of the text. Not embrace it.

    Nickelsaver, “… (which is a minority position). I on the other hand do not put forth an interpretation, but rather follow one(s) that have been defined by many others.”

    There are numerous Bible scholars, theologians, commentators, teachers, pastors throughout history and a growing number today who believe that Islam will play a pivotal role in these Last Days. For example:

    Hilaire Belloc (1938) – Foresaw Islam’s rise to threaten Christianity “Will not perhaps the temporal power of Islam [will] return … I cannot but believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of Islam.”

    Gregory Palamus of Thessalonica (1354) – Gregory Palamus interprets Jesus’ declaration that “The time will come, that whosoever kills you will think that he does God a service” (John 16:2) to be the Islamic persecution.

    Josiah Litch (1840) – In his Fall of the Ottoman Roman Empire, interpreted Revelation as the ushering in of Islam: “There is so general an agreement among Christians, especially protestant commentators, that the subject of this prediction is Mahommedism [Islam].” He even described the magnitude of Islam’s role as Antichrist to the extent of calling it the “general agreement among Christians, especially protestant commentators.”

    Cyril of Jerusalem (315-368 A.D) — In his Divine Institutes, and before the advent of Islam, Cyril believed that Antichrist will proceed forth from the region of ancient Syria, which today extends from Syria well into portions of Asia Minor (Turkey).

    John of Damascus (676-749) — In his famous book, Against Heresies associated Islam as forerunner of Antichrist.

    Chuck Missler – Acknowledges that the “eastern leg” of the Roman Empire outlasted the “western leg” by a thousand years, and that there is significant Scriptural evidence pointing to an Islamic, Middle Eastern Antichrist.

    John MacArthur – Has dropped the Revived Roman Empire view in favor of the Islamic End Time Paradigm, stating recently that “as you get to the end of human history and you get into the period of time called the Tribulation, there is a specific fulfillment of this prophecy [of Matthew 24:5,11] that I want you to understand. And it has to do with Islam.” You can listen to that specific sermon here.

    There are numerous others that could be mentioned, such as Martin Luther (1483–1546), John Calvin (1509-1564), Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758) and others saw that Islam and Middle Eastern nations playing a significant role in Last Days prophecy. In fact, Clarence Larkin even stated that, geographically, a modern-day Muslim nation “fixes the locality from which the Antichrist shall come” (Dispensational Truth Or God’s Plan and Purpose in the Ages, p. 118). Moreover, many former Muslims who convert to Christianity often recognize telltale signs of Islam in Bible prophecies concerning Antichrist and the Last Days. I wonder why that is?

    During the Middle Ages most people believed that the world was flat. To believe otherwise was a “minority position” that could have gotten you killed. So even if the Islamic End Time Paradigm were to be a “minority position”, that means virtually nothing in terms of its veracity. “Minority” it may be, but it is not new, it is not private, and I believe that it will continue to receive more attention in the days ahead. Some day, the European/RCC model will be the “minority position.”

    Nickelsaver, “I look at your interpretation as implausible.”

    Consider the following. Satan is setting up the Muslim world to accept the Antichrist with arms wide open. I believe firmly that the empire of the Beast is already here, we see it on the news every day, read it in the papers, hear about it on the radio, etc. If it is implausible that Islam is the system of Antichrist, then you’ll need to believe that:

    * Yet a different nearly two billion people will also be specifically antichrist as the most important fundamental (“shirk”) of an as yet unknown European religion.

    * Yet a different nearly two billion people will also follow a different, as yet unknown, European false prophet.

    * Yet a different religion will also “wear out the saints” by murdering Jews and Christians (Dan 7:25) – and by beheading.

    * Yet a different religion will also change the times – by creating its own calendar. (Daniel 7:25)

    * Yet a different religion will also attempt to change laws – by ignoring the Sabbath as well as imposing Islamic Sharia law, in the place of legitimate laws of sovereign nations, throughout the world. (Daniel 7:25)

    * Yet a different religion will also build yet another abomination on the Temple Mount that is specifically antichrist, which contain inscriptions inside and out that read “Far be it from God’s glory that he should have a Son”.

    * Yet a different religion will establish in a few years what took Islam almost 1400 years to establish.

    Is it a plausible proposition to believe that the nearly two billion antichrist Muslims in antichrist Islam today, will all convert to a different as yet unknown European antichrist religion, operated by some as yet unknown antichrist charismatic European leader, and this in a period that is, for all intents and purposes, virtually overnight? Tell me, what’s more implausible here?


  25. 02/18/2012 at 9:47 PM

    Two thumbs WAY UP, as Siskel and Ebert used to say.

    ICA: We do not interpret Scripture in light of a doctrine. I would argue that this is what pre-tribism does. It is what traditional dispensationalism does. It is what the European/RCC model does…

    You could add Calvinism, while you’re on a roll. Just a suggestion.


  26. 02/18/2012 at 10:36 PM

    Well I can see that you preach Christ crucified. Do you believe in the essentials; Sola Scriptura, Sola Fida, Sola Gracia, Solus Christus, Soli Deo gloria?

    If so, I can call you brother even if we see prophecy differently.

    BTW, I am neither Calvinist or Armenian. I believe that God is Sovereign and that He has given us freewill. And to take either one to the extreme is to extinguish the other. I rather believe that God has the ability to make both true without my being able to know where the line is drawn. But that is another endless debate.

    God Bless gentlemen.


    • ICA
      02/19/2012 at 12:03 AM

      Yes, definitely. My name “ICA” stands for “In Christ Alone”. There is only one Word, and that Word assures us that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. One God. One Plan. One Purpose. One People. And one day, there will be no more looking through a glass darkly …


  27. 02/19/2012 at 12:21 AM

    Question for you. If John saw and wrote down the Islamic symbols relating to Allah, rather than the Greek numerals 666, it would have been unprecedented. In other words, can you point to any other time a biblical author wrote down what he actually saw in a vision, as opposed to a description of what he saw?


  28. 02/19/2012 at 12:30 AM

    Did you get chance to look at fofoa.blogspot.com yet?

    Something I will tell you. And I say this only because I do not have a person stake in any viewpoint, only in that I lean towards what I consider most plausible. But the idea that gold, and only gold, it going to absorb all financial assets as the dollar plunges, will create an instant shift of power to the OIL or Islamic states. In other words. One could easily see a world monetary collapse as opportunity for all of Islam to rise up at once.


  29. Willard
    02/19/2012 at 11:20 AM

    And Sharia Banking ready to step into place – almost every country has some forms of Sharia finance within its banking and market system already – some more some less


    • 02/20/2012 at 7:28 PM

      Sharia Banking would only become possible thru the demise of the dollar. Since the dollar is the reserve currency. When the paper gold market fails with the dollar, it will lack price discovery. This is the when all the countries can pull out their gold and say “We have this much”. A financial reset. I am not sure how much gold the Saudi’s have, but it is a lot. Nixon closed the gold window because the Saudi’s were redeeming their dollars for gold. Even after the window closed, they still received partial payment in gold. Together, all of the Islamic nations could form a coalition with oil and gold. It would be substantial!!

      Very interesting. In either scenario, RRE or ROE, gold and the dollar demise is key.

      Right now the US is a big road block for Iran and other Islamic nations. The death of the dollar changes that.


      • 02/21/2012 at 6:43 PM

        It appears that of all the Islamic countries, Iran has the most gold by far, over 900 tons compared to Saudis who have about 325. Total gold reserves by all Islam nations is just under 2500 tons. Compare that to EU approx 15000 tons, USA approx 8000 tons, China 1100 tons.

        We can see that upon economic reset that the EU is in the best position. The only thing the Islamic states have is Oil.
        This could be a difference maker. The US produces a lot of Oil, but uses more than they can produce. The EU is energy dependent.

        Other considerations are agricultural’s. The China leads by a wide margin, followed by EU, India and a distant fourth USA.

        It would seem a natural fit for a partnership between the EU and the Islamics (energy for gold/food).


  30. ICA
    02/19/2012 at 12:07 PM

    Nickelsaver, “Question for you. If John saw and wrote down the Islamic symbols relating to Allah, rather than the Greek numerals 666, it would have been unprecedented. In other words, can you point to any other time a biblical author wrote down what he actually saw in a vision, as opposed to a description of what he saw?”

    Not that I am aware of. John seems to have been given a vision of something very specific and significant. In fact, Scripture explicitly states that someone with “understanding” would be required to reckon the multitude of a man, suggesting that the overwhelming majority of us would be unable to decipher its meaning, not because we wouldn’t have the mental capacity, but simply because we would not have the required knowledge to understand what it was we’d be looking at. It took a former Muslim who converted to Christianity — someone who grew up in an Islamic culture and who understood Arabic — to recognize that χξϚ resembled the Arabic “Bismallah” while studying the Greek text. Watch this video.


    • 02/19/2012 at 9:05 PM

      This really seems like a stretch. When we look at the text, we are not looking at what John wrote down, we are looking at what was passed down. So what is really being supposed is that it was originally written down was what he saw rather than what he understood. You do understand that it can only be regarded as a possibility, not as fact?

      We still have the equal (if not greater) possibility that he actually understood it correctly to be the number 666.


  31. ICA
    02/20/2012 at 11:44 AM

    Nickelsaver, “This really seems like a stretch.”

    Hi Brother, I would contend that it is much more exegetically sound than, for instance, the idea of a seven-year “peace treaty” somewhere in Daniel 9:27. Yet, judging from previous comments, that is an idea you’ve easily embraced.

    Nickelsaver, “When we look at the text, we are not looking at what John wrote down, we are looking at what was passed down.”

    We’re looking at both. He recorded what he saw, because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write it down that way (2 Tim 3:16).

    Nickelsaver, “So what is really being supposed is that it was originally written down was what he saw rather than what he understood.”

    The Prophets did not need to always understand the visions they were given (See Daniel 8, for example). They only needed to write them down. In fact, Scripture even states that the understanding of some visions would be “sealed till the time of the end” (Dan 12:9). The Book of Revelation is often considered a “sister book” of Daniel, so if this is true for Daniel, why would it not also be true for Revelation?

    Nickelsaver, “You do understand that it can only be regarded as a possibility, not as fact?”

    In your view, it could be a “monumental coincidence.” Sure, I’ll agree with that. I mean, there’s a chance we may see a 6.3 earthquake in San Francisco next Wednesday between 8:00 am and 11:30 am. If it happens, then this statement would have been coincidental. But given the preponderance of Biblical evidence throughout the whole of apocalyptic literature, and in light of current events that we are witnessing today on a daily basis, the possibility that what John saw was the “Bismallah” is being reinforced to the point where it is beginning to move from mere possibility, to likelihood, to near certainty. As the video above asks, what are the chances? And I would agree: Slim to none …

    Nickelsaver, “We still have the equal (if not greater) possibility that he actually understood it correctly to be the number 666.”

    What John may or may not have understood it to be and what the intent of the Holy Spirit was may be two different things. He was inspired of the Spirit to write it the way that he did and state only someone with “understanding” could “reckon” it. Now the question is, “Why?”


  32. 02/20/2012 at 12:01 PM

    Fair enough. Did you see my earlier request? Do you have a pdf or a document that lays out your entire view? I would like to to link to it.

    Thank you



  33. ICA
    02/20/2012 at 12:38 PM

    No PDF per se, though I would probably refer to the commentary on Revelation 13 and this Mark of the Beast article, as well as the articles identifying the “people of the prince to come” and the scope of Antichrist’s theocratic rule. There’s even book reviews of Walid’s “God’s War on Terror” by Ray Gano and Geoff Dickson that can be referenced. If someone prefers watching a video on this subject instead, I would recommend Joel Richardson’s work, or Walid Shoebat’s “End Times Today” series which I’ve linked to here. John MacArthur also gave a sermon on this subject, which can be downloaded here.


  34. 02/20/2012 at 12:50 PM

    Well, perhaps you are the person to undertake the task. Something like this.

    Click to access seventieth_week_1.pdf

    Also, I have a forum in which I am attempting to bring different angles together.


    I have already placed a link to your blog there. Please feel free to visit and leave your “mark” as it were.

    Thank you



  35. 02/20/2012 at 6:35 PM


    We’ve all (including ICA) made adjustments in our theology and eschatology. I think we are getting closer to the truth, not further. I certainly also believed in a more typical, pre-trib scenario too until I really started digging into scripture for myself. I don’t think its that hard to see the truth, if you throw out preconceptions.

    I’ve read all your posts with interest. It sounds like you’re at least entertaining the possibility that we are watching the Beast recover from its fatal head wound. I don’t remember if that aspect was covered (certainly it is in one of ICA’s articles), but have you considered Rev 17:9-11:

    Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

    5 are fallen: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece

    1 is: Rome

    The other has not yet come: What is the RRE/RCC/EC view of this? We believe its the reign of Islam, personified through the Ottoman Empire/Caliphate. Remember, the Bible is Jerusalem-centric. What “king” ruled over Jerusalem AFTER the Roman Empire? Really only one.

    It suffered “the fatal head wound” of Rev 13:3 just after WW-1, when the military took over Turkey and established secular rule. That changed in 2002, when Erdogan was elected; since then hundreds of army officers have been jailed and the Islamist AKP is now firmly in charge. The Beast empire fell, but is now “resurrected”, “an eighth”.

    May God enlighten your mind as you search the Word of Truth,



  36. 02/20/2012 at 7:08 PM

    The Antichrist, false prophet, and the 2 witnesses; they are real people or figurative?


  37. ICA
    02/20/2012 at 11:13 PM

    Nickelsaver, “The Antichrist, false prophet, and the 2 witnesses; they are real people or figurative?”

    Hi brother, that’s debatable for many and will be something each of us need to be convinced of in our own minds. But here is my take.

    Antichrist: There are two possibilities. 1) It may be an Islamic “messianic figure” called “Al Mahdi“, also known as the “12th Imam”. Read more about what Iran is doing to prepare for his “return” here. 2: It may be an “entity”. In the article “2 Thessalonians 2:4 — A Rebuilt Jewish Temple, or Something Else?” I wrote the following:

    There is also one final point that needs to be considered as well with respect to the “man of sin”. We should not discount the possibility that the “man of sin” may not be pointing to one single person as it were, though the general consensus is precisely that, but could instead be pointing to one single entity. Just as the ekklesia of God is comprised of a great multitude of believing Jews and Gentiles created as “one new man” in Christ who are marked by God (Eph. 2:15, Rev. 14:1) and described by John in Revelation 7 as the “multitude of the lamb” (the Lamb being the Son of God, those who follow the Christ, Jesus), then the “man of sin” (2 Thess 2:3) may simply be its direct antithesis comprised of those who have the Mark of the Beast and described by John in Revelation 13 as the “multitude of a man” (the “son of perdition”, those who follow the false prophet Mohammed). If this is the case, then we may be even closer to the cusp of prophetic fulfillment than many of us realize.

    I’m keeping an eye open for both possibilities.

    False Prophet: There are a few views in this regard. 1) Since one cannot become a Muslim if they do not acknowledge the ‘prophet Mohammed’ and recite the Islamic creed (Shahada) by declaring “There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah”, the False Prophet may be Mohammed himself. 2) It may be the “prophet Jesus” who will, according to Islam, return in the End of Days with Al Mahdi. Muslims believe that the “prophet Jesus” will be subservient to Al Mahdi and will destroy the cross and have all Christians & Jews killed who do not convert to Islam. 3) It could be the collective body of Islamic sheiks/imams who constantly spew hatred, incitement and issue “fatwas” (Islamic religious decrees) against Jews, Christians and all who oppose Islam. These men relentlessly proclaim to the Ummah about Allah’s future for Jews and Christians. We even see them today claiming that calamities and natural disasters that affect non-Muslims as miraculous, divine punishments from Allah.

    Two Witnesses: In short, John never calls the “two witnesses” men. Instead, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he calls them the “two olive trees and two lampstands.” Nowhere in the whole of Scripture does the “olive tree” or “lampstand” ever symbolize men. To read my thoughts on this in greater detail, please see here.


  38. 02/20/2012 at 11:53 PM

    And in general, keep in mind that the opposite of “figurative” is “literal”, while the opposite of “real” is “pretend”. If you believe a passage or prophecy is “figurative” or “symbolic”, it does not mean you believe it is “unreal”.

    We know most of the book of Revelation is symbolic–for instance, when John describes “the seven mountains on which the woman sits” he immediately interprets the meaning of “mountains” – they are “kings”. Many times the interpretation is not immediately provided, but is provided elsewhere in the book. Or we have to go outside of Revelation to find the answer, perhaps using ‘the principal of first mention’.

    I think we are so on the defensive against liberalism and the erosion of faith that we can’t appreciate all that God is trying to communicate to us, because we are interpreting scriptures literally that were not meant to be interpreted that way.


  39. Sandra
    02/23/2012 at 2:25 PM

    Got to appreciate the intelligence of Satan in mixing just enough lie with truth to get you completely off track, & that is exactly what is going on here. The Bible CLEARLY says there will be a mark on the hand or forehead. “He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Revelation 13:16-17
    Guessing that the forehead thing is only for those who do not have a hand. But anyway, it is a mark–not something psychological, not something in your head or your heart. It is a mark. When you start changing even one word of the Bible, how do you know what else wasn’t exactly right, and can also be changed?. The Bibles says not to change even one jot or title.
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Mat 5:18)
    Shame on you, Midnightwatcher, for posting this!!


    • ICA
      02/23/2012 at 3:08 PM

      Hi Sandra, thank you for your comment. I doubt, however, that you read the article in full. It already addresses the points you’ve raised. In fact, it has been revised just recently to add a couple of additional thoughts, which I hope you’ll find enlightening. God bless …


      • Sandra
        02/28/2012 at 11:02 AM

        Thank you, I will reread.


  40. Anonymous
    02/23/2012 at 3:13 PM

    Sandra :
    When you start changing even one word of the Bible, how do you know what else wasn’t exactly right, and can also be changed?. The Bibles says not to change even one jot or title

    I think you meant to write “tittle”, but where, Sandra, do you see ICA changing a “jot or tittle” of the Bible? He just has interpreted the meaning of the scripture differently than you. He hasn’t changed anything.


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